Juli 1941

[t-geronimo]

Die bisher bekannten Daten sind hier zu finden:

  http://historisches-marin...ojekte/asa/uebersicht.php

[crolick]

On 15 VII 1941 at 4.24 SOKÓŁ fired 4 torpedoes to enemy supply ship escorted by 2 escort vessels in position 46°41' N / 02°30' W

It might be German-manned Belgian BAUDOUINVILLE (13 761 BRT) but this is unconfirmed!

[Miroslav]

Nordmeer

JULY 1941
14/1152   SC-401   Moiseev   - D   ?   /   1-T   off Vardo    - probably S/S Aldebaran, Ilona Simers, APV Franke, Gote
14/1628   SC-402   Stolbov   - D   3000   +   2-T   Honningsvaag - S/S Hanau   
15/0510   SC-401   Moiseev   APM      +   2-T   Kibergsneset - Uj-177, Uj-178   
All info regarding Uj-1110 is wrong - this ship sunk in 1942, not in 1941.

Ostsee

JULY 1941                        
19/1635(GST)   S-11   Sereda   - D ? + off Polangen - Spb-11, M-1801, M-1802
L-3 minefield - unsuccessful

[kgvm]

"Gustav Eugene" muß wohl - wenn der Name stimmt - "Gustave Eugene" sein. Allerdings habe ich ein solches Schiff in französischen Unterlagen bisher nicht gefunden.
Eventuell könnte es sich um den 1904 gebauten Motorsegler "Gustave" handeln (118 BRT, Eigner Laurent Yvon et Consorts, Douarnenez). Dieser wird im Annuaire de la Marine Marchande (die erste mir bekannte Nachkriegsausgabe) mit dem Vermerk "Situation indécise" (= Situation unklar) geführt. Ebenso in den Folgejahrgängen, bis er im Jahrgang 1955 als "Perdu" (verloren) gemeldet wird.

[TW]

Am 15 Juli 1941 um 17:50 attackiert UNBEATEN im Golf von Sidra einen Segler von ca 500 BRT und beschädigt den Hilfsminensucher NETTUNO. Ich wüsste gerne, um welche NETTUNO es sich handelt:

Nettuno (ROMA.178)  1938, 15 BRT (Fischkutter)
A.12 / Nettuno (TRIESTE.133)  1921, 406 BRT (Schlepper)
G.31 / Nettuno (LIVORNO.213)  1904, 103 BRT (Schlepper)
B.443 / Nettuno II (RIMINI.521) 1895, 30 BRT (Motorsegler)
AS.103 / Nettuno II (GENUA.1230) 1941, 345 BRT (Kümo)

Die Angabe Minensuchtrawler (APM) scheint mir falsch. APM waren allerdings nicht immer Trawler.
Zu Nettuno (TRIESTE.133) siehe  http://warsailors.com/for...p?1,47263,47263#msg-47263
Zu den PN Nummern siehe  http://forum-marinearchiv...ndex.php/board,222.0.html
Kann jemand weiterhelfen? Schöne Ostertage wünscht Thomas

[Jan-Olof]

Hallo Thomas,

Siehe http://warsailors.com/for...p?1,18245,18277#msg-18277

Schöne Ostertage wünscht Jan-Olof

[TW]

JULY 1941
14/1152   SC-401   Moiseev   - D   ?   /   1-T   off Vardo    - probably S/S Aldebaran, Ilona Siemers, APV Franke, Gote
15/0510   SC-401   Moiseev   APM      +   2-T   Kibergsneset - UJ-177, UJ-178   

Hello TW
On evening 14.7 UJ.177 left to Tanafjord and UJ.177 was left alone – so SC-401 can't attack them both on 15.7. This case (attack U-boat to 2 UJagern) described in all german documents as happen on 4.30 DSZ 14.7. (Adm. Norwegen, Adm. Polarkuste). In this moment is no possibilities to check one more time SC-401 report, but this is almost 100% error and real attack was on 14/7.

Then, attack SC-401 on 14.7 in 11.52 – ILONA SIMERS arrived in Kirkenes only in 20.00, and very doubtful, that she spend 9 hour to pass from Kiberg. But two other ships - Glettkau and Willi Charles - arrived in Kirkenes in 14.00 (KMD Kirkenes), so they are more suitable as targets to sub.
Regards from Igor Borisenko

[TW]

On evening 14.7 UJ.177 left to Tanafjord and UJ.177 was left alone – so SC-401 can't attack them both on 15.7. This case (attack U-boat to 2 UJagern) described in all german documents as happen on 4.30 DSZ 14.7. (Adm. Norwegen, Adm. Polarkuste). In this moment is no possibilities to check one more time SC-401 report, but this is almost 100% error and real attack was on 14/7.

In your statement is an antagonism I cant solve:
1) On evening 14.7 UJ.177 left to Tanafjord and UJ.177 was left alone ...
2) Attack U-boat to 2 UJagern [is] described in all german documents ...

My questions:
1) Attack on which 2 UJagers has happend on 4.30 DSZ 14.7. (Adm. Norwegen, Adm. Polarkuste) ??
2) And what was the position of these 2 UJagers during attack ?
Best regards, Thomas
 

[TW]

Then, attack SC-401 on 14.7 in 11.52 – ILONA SIMERS arrived in Kirkenes only in 20.00, and very doubtful, that she spend 9 hour to pass from Kiberg. But two other ships - Glettkau and Willi Charles - arrived in Kirkenes in 14.00 (KMD Kirkenes), so they are more suitable as targets to sub. -- Igor Borisenko

Hey Igor, I suppose
you mean two tugs GLETTKAU x po ZEGLARZ (Groener VI,139) and WILLY CHARLES (Groener III,231).
A third version (for the attack 14/1152) was proposed by Sergey Golbov: 14/0710 APV UJ177, UJ178 missed by 1 T in AC8464. 29 Wabo.
Best regards, Thomas

P.S. This moment I see that A-time 15/0510 would excellently match with B-time (not date) 14/0710 cited by Sergey.

[igor]

In my statement about UJagers i meant, that attack on them recorded in German documents as happen 14.7 on 04.30 in Quadrat AC8464 ostlich Vardo. There is no such attack on 15.7 in documents, and that evening (14.7), already after attack, 177 left scene. So, this is one more argument for errror in soviet documents about SC-401 attack 15.07. In reality it was conducted on 14.7.41
Sergei Golbov give 07.10 - this is time, when F/T was send to APK, as it recorded in KTB APK. Adm. Norwegen gives full text of F/T as: "Um 04.30 in Quadrat AC 8464..." and so on.

As to attack 14/1152, this is a hard case. Nobody see torpedoes or sub, and we can only suppose, what happen. I give you facts: Glettkau and Willi Charles arrived 14.00, ILONA SIMERS and others - in 20.00. Miroslav strongly think, that i wrong, and this still was ILONA SIMERS attacked in 11.52. Decide is to you.

Btw about your PS. German 0510 not equal soviet 0710. In summer there was only one hour difference. German 0510=0610

[crolick]

you mean two tugs GLETTKAU x po ZEGLARZ (Groener VI,139) and WILLY CHARLES (Groener III,231).

According to Polish sources:
GLETTKAU
1940 - Marinearsenal Gotenhafen
VIII 1940 - Marinearsenal Calais
1941 - Marinearsenal Gotenhafen
1945 - Kiel
I doubt that GLETTKAU (ex ŻEGLARZ) which was small tug (168 t) was involved in attack in Kirkenes.


Andrzej

[TW]

I doubt that GLETTKAU (ex ŻEGLARZ) which was small tug (168 t) was involved in attack in Kirkenes.

Dear Andrzej, I'm really delighted to hear from you, again.
I doubt about that, too, therefore my question. But: I find only one other GLETTKAU: a drifter (Danziger Heringsfischer) of 352grt, from Jan.1940 until Sep.1941 minesweeper M1406 --- that means operation room Northsea and Netherland's coast. Also not very probable to find that vessel near Vardö.
Wish you a nice weekend,
Thomas

[igor]

In Dinklage buch, dieser GLETTKAU (1939, 353 grt, FMS) nicht in France gesunken, aber UdSSR nach Krieg abgeliefert. Groner hast viele Fehler, und hier auch moglich.

[TW]

Minenunternehmung K-3
Minenlage: 55.09,5n - 19.39,0e / 54.58,0n - 20.00,0e. Keine Erfolge. CISIL sank am 23.8. auf Position 54.18n 15.44e, wahrscheinlich deutsche Hafensperre Kolberg. KAIJA sank am 1.10. auf Minensperre L-3 vom 27.6.
Is it correct, that L-3 laid mine on bright noon (13.30h) ? TW

[igor]

Is it correct, that L-3 laid mine on bright noon (13.30h) ? TW

Yes (from 08.50 to 13.30). Sub laid it from submerged position, when followed of wake of "two minesweepers".