Where were sunk MTB 434 and V 1308?

Begonnen von cam, 16 August 2018, 19:15:07

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cam

Hi,

Colleagues

Please help me find out where I died MTB 434 and V 1308.
Rohwer write
In der Nacht vom 8./9.7. greifen 4 MTBs einen Verband der 13. Vp.-Flottille (KKpt. Dr. Lobeck) mit V 1313, V 1301, V 1306 und V 1310 an. Dabei werden MTB 434 und V 1308 / Bredebeck versenkt.

V1308 Bredenbeck (sunk by HMMTB 434 and others of 54th MTB Flotilla in the North Sea, 9/7/1944)
http://lawrencepaterson.com/vorpostenboote-flotillas/
MTB 434 motor torpedo boat 37 sunk by SC off Normandy, France sunk France N 09.07.1944
http://www.thisismast.org/assets/downloads/rn-loss-list-2018-02-04.pdf
No.434 (37t, 25/1/43), sunk by surface craft off Normandy, July 9, 1944
http://www.naval-history.net/WW2BritishLosses3Coastal.htm
(06.1944)   Portsmouth   MTB 412, 413, 414, 415, 416, 430, 431, 434  1th MTB Flotilla
http://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RN_MTBs.html#1st_MTB_Flotilla
09.07.1944 V 1308 x BREDEBECK 296    MTB   GB   13.Vorpostenbootsflottille    Hoek van Holland
http://www.schiffswrackliste.de/BRT%201944.htm
9 July. HMS MTB 434 The motor torpedo boat was sunk in the North Sea in a battle with V 1301 Uranus, V 1306 Otto Krogmann, V 1312 Bredenbeck, V 1310 Gotland and V 1313 Uran
V 1308 Bredenbeck The Vorpostenboot was sunk in the North Sea in a battle with HMMTB 434 and other vessels of the 54th MTB Flotilla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_July_1944

What of all this is true?

cam

cam

#1
Hi,

MTB 434 (ex MGB 115) under the command of SubLieutentant
Eric Archer RNVR. MTB 434 was in the 1st MTB
Flotilla, which was previously designated the 8th MGB Flotilla,
under the overall command of Robert Hichens. The boat was
lost off Le Havre on 9 July 1944 with the loss of only one
member of crew, a stoker.

http://www.coastal-forces.org.uk/downloads/Newsletter_Autumn_2015.pdf
Perhaps MTB-434 and V 1308 were sunk in different places.

cam

TW

Ich glaube, Du hast Recht, cam. Es waren verschiedene Schauplätze.
Aber ich kann nicht helfen. Habe mit jetzt per Fernleihe das Buch "Home Waters: MTBs at war" von Reynolds bestellt. Vielleicht hilft es uns weiter.
Gruß, Thomas

cam

#3
Thank you Thomas.

Reynolds has inaccuracies, but this source must be looked at. It would be nice to have information from English and German documents for this day.
I can add that the boats of the 1st MTB flotilla did not have a torpedo - only 6-pound and 20-mm guns.

cam

cam

Hi,

I probably found the answer to the question of how the V 1308 was sunk.
8-9/7/44   
MTB 88, MTB 93, MTB 238 and MTB 245 encounter a force of armed trawlers off Scheveningen. MTB 88 and MTB 238 make a torpedo attack hitting and sinking one trawler. MTB 93 and MTB 245 make a torpedo attack achieving two hits. MTB 245 is hit by a shell on the waterline close to the bow and begins to settle. MTB 245 gets underway astern and is later towed stern first by MTB 93 at 5kts. An ML later takes over the tow and a tug is despatched from Felixstowe.
1900   MTB 245 enters Felixstowe awash after twenty hours of towing.

http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=535
If this is correct, it remains to find out how MTB-434 was sunk.

cam

TW

#5
Mostly interesting, cam.
MTB 25, 83, 88, 93, 238, 245, 347 were from the 22nd MTB flotilla (Nore Command), which was newly formed in June 1944.

cam

#6
Zitat von: TW am 25 August 2018, 12:57:41
MTB 25, 83, 88, 93, 238, 245, 347 were from the 22nd MTB flotilla (Nore Command), which was newly formed in June 1944.
In June 1943. 

cam

Urs Heßling

hi,

Zitat von: cam am 25 August 2018, 18:43:44
Zitat von: TW am 25 August 2018, 12:57:41
MTB 25, 83, 88, 93, 238, 245, 347 were from the 22nd MTB flotilla (Nore Command), which was newly formed in June 1944.
In June 1943. 
Possibly earlier than June, 1943
In March 1943, MTB 88 and MTB 93 carried out an successful attack against a German convoy covered by the 13th V-flotilla, sinking two Danish ships, Maria Toft and Agnete, off Terschelling
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-03.htm

greetings, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

cam

Hi,

Indeed, MTB-93 was enlisted in the 22nd flotilla on 1/12/1942.
http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466

cam

cam

Hi,

Probably, this is the battle in which the MTB-434 was sunk.

July 9. 1944
Action off Cap De La Heve.
The next night, clear and calm, brought heavy action for boats 459,461, and 464. A little after midnight shore batteries detected the craft as they patrolled eleven miles southwest of Cap D'Anifer. For an hour they were forced to zigzag at high speed under 'starshell' and total exposure. About one o'clock, as the fire from the coastal batteries began to abate, the M.T.B.'s observed new 'starshell' and gunfire to the north. It was rising, evidently, from an engagement of coastal forces close in to shore.

When the Canadians closed to investigate, they found two British MTB's heavily damaged after an attack on a line of 10 R-boats which were now lying a mile from land in the lee of the cliffs. Between the R-boats and the two British craft lay a third British boat, crippled, and on fire.

Boats 459, 461 and 464 made a run along the enemy line, engaging each R-Boat in turn at a range of a hundred yards. As the M.T.B.'s reversed course, 461 swerved out of line, ran around the crippled British craft to lay a smoke screen, and then came alongside to assist her crew. When the other boats had completed their second run, 464 came over to help with rescue work, while 459 circled the area to hide it with more smoke. The R-boats clung to their dark lee shore, making no effort to interfere, and the Canadians departed at last with all but one of the British crew safe on board. They, to, had suffered, with one man killed and four wounded.


Can you please tell me if there was a battle involving the R-boats on the night of July 8/9, 1944, near Le Havre?
http://www.naval-museum.mb.ca/mtb/page3.htm

cam

TW


TW

Nachtrag: Es handelte sich am 9. Juli um eine Gefecht mit 10 Booten der 4. und 10. Räumboots-Flottille nördl. Le Havre
MTB 434 und das beschädigte MTB 430 gehörten zur 1st MTB-Flottille.
Gruß, Thomas

Urs Heßling

moin,

da besteht vermutlich ein Tippfehler im KTB SKl.

Es geht nicht um "Raketen-MG", sondern um "Raketen-LG (Anm.: Leuchtgranaten)-Werfer, die eine größere Reichweite besitzen als eigene" (Zitat KTB 2. S-Fltl v. 4./5.7.1944)

Gruß, Urs
"History will tell lies, Sir, as usual" - General "Gentleman Johnny" Burgoyne zu seiner Niederlage bei Saratoga 1777 im Amerikanischen Unabhängigkeitskrieg - nicht in Wirklichkeit, aber in George Bernard Shaw`s Bühnenstück "The Devil`s Disciple"

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