If you need any help ...

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Everybody,

I am not a real expert on Regia Marina ships, ... but I think I can be considered having an average good knowledge.

So I offer my help  to all that needs it about those beautiful ships.

                             Ciao  Antonio  

[Lutscha]

Some info about the Littorio`s firecontrol equipment would be interesting.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Lutscha and all,

OK, ..  easy ,... I have all the infos   .

Are you familiar with the books ' Orizzonte Mare ' edited by Editrice Bizzarri in Roma on the 1970's ??

Are you able to read Italian if I provide you the proper pages scan's.

Do you want / need me to translate them in English for you.

Unfortunately I cannot translate them in German (  I do not speack German yet,.. maybe soon a bit more,.. but right now almost zero   ).

              Ciao  Antonio  


If you write me privately at : Antonio_Bonomi@Virgilio.it  
I will send you all the infos.

[Huszar]

@Antonio:

Thats great, that you have the info we need! Would it be possible, that you translate it into English, and post it here?

We are interested in first line in the range-finders of the Littorio-Class, how many there were, what baselenght they had, and all other aspects in the directionfinding of those ships.

Thanks!

alex

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Lutscha, Huszar and all,

as I have anticipated I am not a real expert of those ships ( I mean I do not know them as well as I know the Kriegsmarine ones ).

But I do have a lot of material on them and mostly I have good and solid  friendship with some of the best  knowledgeable guys about those ships, so if I do not have the immediate answer I can easily ask   .

So I will make the translation and post it in here  but I need some help with the drawings and photos, so maybe you or the webmaster can help me with some space for the links, I need to know to whom I can send some  pics to be posted ( .jpg or .gif or whatever you like ).

What I think you should all know is that the Vittorio Veneto class ( of which Littorio was part )  installations were first studied applyed to the Duilio and Doria that were equipped differently than the Cavour and the Cesare for this purpose.

So it is going to be the overall evolution of those equipment that you are interested on I suppose.

So from the rangefinders to the overall fire direction.

I start the translation, please let me know who can help for the pics to be posted ( I am asking the webmaster meanwhile so I can have help also for other stuffs as well ).

                  Ciao  Antonio  

[t-geronimo]

I can post the pictures.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Thorsten and all,

great my friend, THANKS  

For me it is always a pleasure to work with you.

I will start sending you something soon.

                 Ciao  Antonio  

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

well later you will see the pics related to this explanation when thru Thorten  we will be able to post them.
 
Vittorio Veneto class  Fire Controls

The fire direction system on the Vittorio Veneto class was initially  installed on the rebuilt Duilio and Doria battleships.

It was a set of very modern equipment for the period  and unless an addition of one radio-tele-meter  ( now better known as R.A.D.A.R. )  they were never changed.

For the data elaboration  they were all referring to the ( Centrale Tiro ) central fire direction system installed  on the second aisle under the protection deck, after the  barbette of turret number 1, basically below the main tower.

This data elaboration  system  was based on :   a   ' Centrale  Automatica San Giorgio '  ( name of the system )  for big units ; with 4  additional subsystems (  Mobilone a 4 smistamenti  ) ;   an energy distribution system ( power  control ),  one inclination control   ( Mediatore Beta Inclinometro ) ;  one  control of telemetric distances evaluations  ( Mediatore distanze Telemetriche ) ; of a control panel  for turrets fire ( Quadro Comando fuoco torri ) ; of a  recording system for the fire executed (  Registratore Dati di Tiro ) ;  of a receiver  of the rudder angle ( Ricevitore angolo di barra ) ; of a receiver of the ship speed  ( Ricevitore Velocita' propria  dal solcometro  );  of a receiver of the bearing from the  A.P.C.  ( Central Fire Direction Rangefinder ); of a Gimetro  (  variation of the target bearing evaluation system ).  

On of the main tower ( Torrione ),  around 30 meters  from the waterline, there was the First Artillery Officer  fire direction  station  (  Coffa del 1° D.T. Direttore Tiro ) on a cylinder with 2 lateral area for the spotters ( on the Roma going  all around the cylinder ).  
From this  station  the A.P.G ( Apparecchiatura Punteria Generale ) central  targeting system  type San Giorgio  which allowed to  monitor the target and  allowed the fire with  buttons  that could fire the main turrets.  

This  cylinder for the first artillery officer ( 1° D.T. cylinder )   was directly connected with the cylinder down below,  which contained   Central Artillery  Room ( Centrale  Servizio Artiglierie ), with the  central fire  system ( Centrale  Tiro Principale )  on the  superior rangefinder  cylinder / turret ( Torretta Telemetrica  Anulare Superiore ).
This big rotating cylinder was placed under the  1° DT   and contained 2 big rangefinders of 7,2 meters type San Giorgio  ( one stereoscopic  and one at coincidence )  used to measure the target distance.    

Moving down below  there was the inferior rangefinder cylinder / turret  ( Torretta Telemetrica  Anulare Inferiore )  a bit smaller than the one above because only had 1 rangefinder still model type  San Giorgio  of  7,20 meters called ' tactical rangefinder '  used to evaluate  various enemy distances as well as better target findings, etc etc ,  without any interference with the  other 2 above rangefinders used to fire the guns.    

In case of ' out of action ' of the  1° D.T. ( First Artillery control station )  it was possible to pass the control to the  2° D.T. ( Second Artillery Officer control Station )  which was located down below  the ' tactical  rangefinder ' cylinder and above  the Admiral armoured room cylinder.
This second artillery control station was equipped with an A.P.C.  ( Apparecchiatura Punteria Centrale )  which was having their lenses on the of the room  coming out  in front of the main tower.

Additionally on each main gun turret there was  a Central System reduced model type Galilei with a big rangefinder  model type Duplex-San Giorgio  of 12 meters  which allowed each turret to fire on their own independently.    

Summarizing  the fire could have  managed with several different methods :

a)   All the turrets under  the 1° D.T. control with A.P.G. central or turrets 2 or 3 reduced centrals.

b)   All the turrets under the 2° D.T. Control with A.P.G. central or  turrets 2or 3 reduced centrals.

c)   Turrets 1 and 2  directed by 2° D.T. with A.P.G. central or turret 2 reduced central, while turret 3 with 1° D.T. with A.P.G. Central or turret 3 reduced.  

d)   All turrets directed by turret 2  Fire Director managing the central A.P.G or the reduced central of turret 2 itself.

As you can see  many different options including at the end all the options of use by each singular turret itself or managing another one as slave.

For the first time it was thought to fire also in the darkness so for this purpose 2  dedicated  systems were located one each side of the command platform that can manage the turrets fire independently. On reality  they were never used due to the lack of a real system to evaluate distances on the darkness.

The only radar ever installed on the  Vittorio Veneto class was in fact installed on late  1943 ( summer ) just 2 months before the ships sailed to malta in execution of the armistice signed on September 9th, 1943.
Even if it was Guglielmo Marconi on June 20th,  1922 to start developing that theory, Regia Marina never got a radar  till summer of 1943 when a radar ( radiotelemetro )  model  'GUFO' built by Marinelettro of Livorno  was installed on of the main tower ( torrione ) with a 360° degrees rotating angle.

The secondary  152 mm guns  fire direction was based on the side from were the enemy was located.
In fact between the 2 funnels there was on each side the rangefinder stations  equipped with a  rangefinder ( stereo-telemetro )  Model type San Giorgio of 5 meters with related A.P.G.  central fire direction system and all the other instruments.
The 2 lateral turrets were connected with 2 central fire control station located under the protection deck  on the 2 sides of main turret 2.
The  4  triple 152 mm turrets were also singularly equipped with a  6,3 meter rangefinder  model type San Giorgio  and a reduced fire control station model type  R.M. 4.

Than there were the Anti-Aircraft  rangefinders  of 3 meters placed aside of the main tower with their own dedicated  A.P.G. ( central control fire system ).  

Finally there was under the mainmast a spare 3 meters rangefinder.

Hope my explanation  is satisfactory,  if you need more details just let me know.

                                    Ciao  Antonio  

[t-geronimo]

Hier die Bilder dazu:

[Lutscha]

Thanks so much!

I have more questions concernig the combined rangefinders.
What was the wisdom behind pairing the stereoscopic rangefinder with the coincidence one as was done on the main rangefinder platform? Why was this done and how did it fare in combat?
Which of them was actually used for range determination? I guess the stereoscopic one but what purpose did the other one serve?

[Spee]

@T-G,

kannst die Bilder mal bitte kleiner machen. Da wird mal ja schwirr    .

@Antonio,

very nice, extermely. Thank you very much!

[t-geronimo]

Besser?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Lutscha,

The stereoscopic rangefinder was the system used by the KM ships too.
You have 2 marks that must match  the lenght of the ship ( bow and stern ) so you can calculate her length and obtain the distance ( knowing her real length ).

The coincidence rangefinder  was the system used by Royal Navy.
You have a reflection  shadow of the ship an it must match while placed on of the target to obtain the lenght and consequently the enemy distance.

Each one of those models had advantages and disadvantages, it was decided to install them both as you can see.
In my opinion the  data coming out of that area were an average of the 2 measurements after some evaluations, progressively kept adjourned thru the engagement.
I suppose they were trained on use them both and work on the differences of the readings based on previous real simulations.  

Very clever was the ' Tactical Rangefinder' use too.  

I will try to learn more about this one.

@ Spee,

thanks my friend,  you know it is my pleasure to help and share.

Did you receive my mails ??

                   Ciao  Antonio  

[Spee]

@T-G,

danke, viel besser. So kann man den Text gut lesen.

@Antonio,

well, I got your mails and I will answer you in the next days.

[Huszar]

Thanks Antonio!

A complex system, but has a lot of reserve, if one of the range-finders were hit.


Have you any info, how this arrangement worked?



alex