Schnellboote

[Urs Heßling]

hi, Alo,

The text should probebly be: Commander on a Schnellboot in 7. Schnellbootslottille and later in 3. Schnellbootflottille, 1. Schnellbootdivision.

Ich habe nur Unterlagen für Heckel als Kdt in der 7. SFltl, die zeitweise zur 1. Schnellbootsdivision gehörte

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Hi Urs,

I read in Hümmelchen page 110 that the 7. Schnellbootflottille was absorbed into the 3 SFtl on 13 Oct 1944 as 2. Gruppe.

There is at least one more Schnellboot wreck in the Baltic.

S 8 was found as a hulk in Eckenförde in May 1945. She was sunk at sea on the 17 May 1945 by the British.
Do anyone know more?
I think she could have been a Versuchboot by the TVA like S 9

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

.. the 7. Schnellbootflottille was absorbed into the 3 SFtl on 13 Oct 1944 as 2. Gruppe.

Ja, das ist korrekt, mit OLtzS Buschmann als Gruppenführer.
Insofern war OLtzS Heckel also Kdt in der 3. SFltl, ich muß mich da korrigieren.

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Hi,

I found that the 184 Squadron (Typhoon) 2 TAF did attack Schnellboote north of Lübeck already on the 2 May 1945.

2 May 1945 16:50-18:00. "..attacked E-boats and 2 M.V. Cannon strikes seen on all ships. Two R.P. hits on stern at waterline of one M.V. Intense light flack from one M.V. Claims. One M.V. and one E boat damaged..."

This could have been S 170, S 226 and/or hulks from the Schlichting warf.

/Alo

[alo41]

Hi,

The R 40 photo in the "Identifizierung" thread made me understand where this Schnellboot is, Travemünde.

Link: http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,22245.0.html

The Schnellboot is then probebly a Schlichting type S 100 boat with a "P" marking on the Kalotte.

Commander?
Flottille?
Time?

Travemünde entrance looks a bit diffrent today!

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

hi,

Commander?

Gute Frage: so viele "P" gibt es nicht, weder bei Vor- noch bei Familiennamen

Für Schlichting-Kalottenboote fand ich bisher nur
- Albrecht Pillet, S 180, und
- Kurt Pinger, S 182,
ansonsten (nicht Schlichting)
- Peter Neumeier, S 707, und
- Walter-Paul Sobottka, S 141.

Ich habe allerdings nicht alle Vornamen der StOStm/OStm-Kommandanten.

Vielleicht ist es doch ein Schulflottillen-Boot ?

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Hi Urs,

There is one more photo of a "P" boat in Cuxhaven (to the left). It is said to be S 87/S 88 or S 176 in diffrent books (probebly wrong as usually). It does not look like the boat is painted in the same way as the Travemünde boat (probebly a diffrent boat, type S 38b?).

I think that S 180 and S 182 are Lürssen boats as well. I guess that they still could have been to the Schlichting warf for some repaire.

The singel letter on the Kalotte without any other Flottille marking is typical for the 10 S-Ftl. The S-SchulFtl Kalotte boats had the letter on the side plate. And then there are always exceptions...

/Alo

[alo41]

Hi,

I found another amazing Schnellboot gun story. Link: http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8330937 
It must be from the same very creative seller as the Horst Schuur Walter gun. Link (post 614):  http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,18105.600.html

"Seller's Description:
LIEUTENANT HANS BUSCHMAN NAVAL LUGER This very historic German naval Luger was used in both world wars by the Buschman family. It was used in World War I by Obelt z.S Gunther Buschman on the battleship SMS Ostriesland at the Battle of Juttland & by his son, Obelt z.S Hans Buschman, commander of the Schnellboot S-57 in World War II. This Luger was recovered from the wreck of the German Schnellboot S-57 off the coast of Mljet in the Adriatic Sea. It belonged to the commander of the S-57, Obelt z.S (Senior Lieutenant) Hans Buschman who used it in several naval battles off the coast of Tobruk, North Africa & in the southern Adriatic Sea from May 1941 to when it was sunk on March 18, 1944. It is a World War I vintage naval Luger with a 6 inch barrel but the maker marks can no longer be made out. It is in very good + stable relic condition & is complete with the exception of the clip & the wood grips. It was recovered by the son of German Luftwaffe Sergeant Fritz Buschman who was the younger brother of Lieutenant Hans Buschman. He flew aerial reconnaissance throughout the Adriatic Sea in a Fieseler Fi 156 Storch (stork) from Dubrovnik where the S-57 & the 3rd S-Boot Flotilla were based. I have his Luftwaffe eagle flying wings in silver embroidery, not the usual cloth type, sholder straps & picture. If interested contact me at gallantpelham75@aol.com for more information. This is certainly a must have for any German or Luger collector! I have never seen a relic condition Luger of any kind for sale at any of the gun shows that I have been attending for over 35 years! These pistols are not rare today but naval Lugers certainly are! History of the Buschman family Luger This naval Luger was first issued to Obelt z.S (Senior Lieutenant) Gunther Buschman who was a junior gunnery officer on the battleship SMS Ostriesland. He served on this ship from 1915 to the end of the war & was present at the surrender of the German fleet at Rosyth Scotland. He served with distinction at Jutland & was decorated for his efforts in saving the ship after it hit a mine on the way home from Jutland. When World War II broke out he gave the Luger to his elder son Hans in 1941 when he as assigned to Schnellboot S-31 in 1940. He was promoted to executive officer on S-57 under Oblt. Gunter Erdmann in October 1942 when the boat was transferred to the Adriatic Sea. He was decorated with the Iron Cross for his part in the sinking of the H.M.S. Cocker off Tobruk North Africa on February 4, 1942. When Oblt. Gunter Erdmann was promoted Buschman was promoted to Obelt z.S & given command of the S-57. On the night of August 17/18 six German ships were attacked by British Torpedo boats off Mljet, several were sunk. The next night S-57, along with 4 other Schnell boats attacked the British Motor Torpedo Boats 675 & 658 as well as Motor Gun Boat 658 in the same place as the action the night before & drove them off. In the action S-57 was heavily damaged, sustaining numerous hits from cannon shells & machine gun bullets, killing 2 crewmen & wounding 9 others. The engines were damaged beyond repair & the boat was on fire so Lieutenant Buschman set scuttling charges & sank his boat as it could not be towed back to its base. Obviously the Luger was overlooked in the rush to get the survivors, wounded & dead onto the other S-boats before the S-57 blew up! It went down with the boat & was found among the remains of the bridge & brought to the surface. This information was obtained from a letter from (the late) Karl Buschman & comes with the Luger which was purchased from his widow in May 2007."

Could there be a littel bit of truth in it?

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

hi, Alo,

Yes, a little bit 

"Seller's Description:
It belonged to the commander of the S-57, Obelt z.S (Senior Lieutenant) Hans Buschman who used it in several naval battles off the coast of Tobruk, North Africa & in the southern Adriatic Sea from May 1941 to when it was sunk on March 18, 1944.

In den englischspechenden Marinen gibt es die Bezeichnung "Senior Lieutenant" nicht.
S 57 kam im Mittelmeer am 15.2.42 zum ersten Einsatz und wurde am 19.8.44 versenkt.

"Seller's Description:
a junior gunnery officer on the battleship SMS Ostriesland. He served on this ship from 1915 to the end of the war & was present at the surrender of the German fleet at Rosyth Scotland.

Es gab keine "Kapitulation" der deutschen Flotte, auch nicht vor Rosyth, und SMS Ostfriesland gehörte nicht einmal zu den Schiffen, die in Scapa Flow interniert wurden.

"Seller's Description:
He was promoted to executive officer on S-57 under Oblt. Gunter Erdmann in October 1942 when the boat was transferred to the Adriatic Sea. He was decorated with the Iron Cross for his part in the sinking of the H.M.S. Cocker off Tobruk North Africa on February 4, 1942.

Einen "executive officer" (= Ersten Offizier / I.O.) gab es auf Schnellbooten nicht, auch keinen "First Lieutenant" (= 1. Wachoffizier / IWO).
S 57 wurde im Zeitraum 12/43 bis 3/44 über den Land- und Flußweg vom Westlichen Mittelmeer zur Adria verlegt.
Die Versenkung der Cocker war in der Nacht 3./4.6.1942

Einige Ungereimtheiten zu viel .. 

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Hi Urs,

Yes, there are many questinable things. I wonder if there are any examples of a WW1 Luger being used in WW2? Did it ever hapen that officers brought thier own gun to the field?

I am sure that this seller has a gun and makes up a good story about it to get the price up.

/Alo

[Urs Heßling]

moin, Alo,

I am sure that this seller has a gun and makes up a good story about it to get the price up.

Ja, da stimme ich Dir zu.

Noch 3 Ungereimtheiten

When Oblt. Gunter Erdmann was promoted Buschman was promoted to Obelt z.S & given command of the S-57. On the night of August 17/18 six German ships were attacked by British Torpedo boats off Mljet, several were sunk. The next night S-57, along with 4 other Schnell boats attacked the British Motor Torpedo Boats 675 & 658 as well as Motor Gun Boat 658 in the same place as the action the night before & drove them off.

1) Buschmann wurde am 15.8.43 Kommandant von S 57 und am 1.12.1943 zum OLtzS befördert. Erdmann wurde jedoch erst am 1.1.1944 zum Kapitänleutnant befördert. Der ganze Satz "promoted and given command" stimmt also nicht.

2) Zitat Chronik
Am 19.8. versenken die brit. MTB 675, MGB 658 und MTB 653 vor Dubrovnik (Korcula) aus einem Geleitzug mit 6 Schiffen, einigen Marine-Artillerie-Leichtern (MAL) und der 3. S-Flottille (Kptlt. A. Müller) mit 5 Booten als Sicherung das Schnellboot S 57. [Zitat Ende]

Hier hat der Verkäufer aus einer Nacht zwei Nächte gemacht, "the next night" trifft nicht zu.

3) auf britischer Seite MTB 653 und MGB 658, nicht MTB 658 und MGB 658

Gibt's hier einen Handwaffenspezialisten, der sagen kann, ob es diese Waffe 1915 überhaupt schon gab ?

Gruß, Urs

[Trimmer]

Hallo Urs - bin ja nun kein Spezialist aber die P 08 - wie auf dem Bild - wurde um 1908 im Heer eingeführt und bis 1942 produziert. Kann also durch aus stimmen.

Gruß - Achim - Trimmer

[jockel]

Marine-Modell 1904 P.04



Gruß
Klaus

[Urs Heßling]

moin,
Danke für die Antworten 

Gruß, Urs

[alo41]

Hi,

Thank you all. The rusted gun is then a P.06 short frame type ("Navy Luger" for collectors). It was issued in WW1 but also sold comersialy in the US etc.

The details you can find on these guns are amazing. Link: http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1176-Early-Frame-Tutorial

/Alo