Ausbau Küstenverteidigung Norwegen und die Conte di Cavour

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Lt. Werner,
if U was able to translate rightly the previous e-mails the three 320 mm guns had to be mounted in a tower, so it had to be Cavour and not spare guns of the same type.
The argouments about the munitons are interestng (by the way I didn't know about lack of big calibre shells in the KM), but the Italian factories for munitions and explosives were almost all in the northern part of the peninsula and until 1945 the Italain output of munitons was almost unvaried since 1940. At Pola Cesare was actig since Jan. 1943 as a gunnery school ship, so I believe that Cavour, if used a floating battery by the KM, had no problem with muniotns. personnel would be a different matter, even if the Italian one was available, so the probles are the following ones:

a) was Cavour used as an ack ack floating battery? The Museum Enriquez evidence suggests it was, at least with Italian 37 mm single guns modified according the German way with shields
As we know by the Ansaldo documents the 65/64 mm AA guns were not mounted or adopted and that Cavour had, on Dec. 1941, when she sailed on her own power from Taranto to Trieste, only 8 twin 37/54 while the a.m. Museum Henriques one is a single and not a twin weapon of this calibre and that the Italian Navy final 1942 project for that battleship reconstruction did not foreseen this kind of weapon, but twelve single 65/64 mountings, 10 twin 20/65 mm and 3 single 20 mm, we can presume the single 37 mm had been placed by the Germans where the 65764 would have to be mounted (by the way the same solution, without shields, was adopted by the Regia Marina on the little Capitani Romani  crusiers she sommissioned on 1942-1943).
As the German Navy used between 1943 and 1945 in the widest possible way the Italian 37/54 single mounting as that weapon was suitable to be mounted on small boats (while the twin mountigs suffered from heavy vibrations and need a strong platform as she tormented the structure like a 100 mm twin mounting) the fact the KM mounted thus kind of weapon on Cavour confirm she paid an appreciable importance to that ship as a floating AA battery until her loss on Feb. 1945.
A mix of 37 mm and 20 mm is so the more probable solution to guard the entry of the harbour from enemy low flying bombers carrying torpedoes or, later, rockets.

b) If the ship worked an an AA floating battery why not to use her as a low-angle battery too?
We know by photos the 320 mm guns were mounted and efficient on 8 Sept. 1943 and the 135/45 mm ones too 
in a new kind of twin mounting which allowed an higher degree of elevation that the Dorias and the Capitani Romani for AA barrage fire too and had to be replied on the two "Siamese" anti-aircraft cruisers too.
The KM, like Regia Marina during Summer 1943, used any time she had the opportunity the 135 mm gunst for shore defence. Why she would have to let these useful guns idle on Cavour? So or she dismounted the turrets or she mainained her on the battleship adding their barrels at the AA task of the ship. Lack of evidence (photos or german documents like the one which originated this thread) does not allow to speculate more about this thesis.

c) At least one 320 mm tower was efficient and the KM thought to translfer her to Norway when war inn italy seemed near to the end during Summer 1944. The transfer did not materialize, but a big gun tower is a delicate tool. The idea to dismantle the tower imply: the enduring efficiency, since Autunm 1943 to Summer 1944, of the tower and the exisestence of trained personnel. The idea to use in Norway Italian personnel which had not only to assist the dismantlig, transfer and re-building of the tower, her guns, munitions, propellants and the fire control material during a more than one year process after Italy had been occupied and the families of this same personnel were divided from them by the Alps and the front line is someway too much. To believe, then, that German personnel only, with the lack of sailors, NCO and officiers the KM suffered between 1942 and 1945, could have been spared to man a floating battery at Triest is quite odd indeed. moreover as we know by photos and movies that the rule was to use a mix of Italian and German naval artillery parties in Italy and France.
This order of ideas suggests that the German personnel which had to be dispatched to Norway had been trained, by Aug. 1944, on Cavour (and a typical session needs at least six month before to be considered combat ready, something more once you have to face the barries of lenguage and different material) and that they were all the available people for that task. Given the usual proportion between Italian and German parties in the shore and floating batteries on 1944-1945, Cavour had so to have at least her two triple towers manned by mixed personnel as a floating battery guarding the Trieste harbour entrance.

Given these hypotesis it would be interesting to discover if German documents of photos can support these thoughts. Maybe even some simple panorama views of Trieste between Sept. 1943 and Feb. 1945 which includes Cavour could be useful.

    Greetings

       EC 

PS An Italian source wrote that the two Siamese cruisers were used as AA floating batteries at Trieste on 1944-1945. I had always some very severe doubts about this statement as the two hulls were soon stripped of everything useful and sent to Muggia where they sunk without any maintenance, anyway a kernel of truth, referred to Cavour, could be real, or perhaps that was the original German and Italian idea about those two ships. Any further info would be welcome.       
                             

[Zerstörerfahrer]

Ich hab leider nichts mehr von der Cavour gefunden, jedoch sind folgende Seiten sehr interessant, da man sehr gut sieht, wie es um die Munitionsversorgung der Batterien aussah.















Quelle: NARA

[SchlPr11]

Vom SchlPr.11:
Die Schwere Artillerie der CONTE DI CAVOUR war verschiedentlich Gegenstand im KTB der SKL. Ich werde gelegentlich dort wieder einmal nachlesen.
Heute biete ich dieses Foto aus meiner Sammlung zur weiteren Diskussion an.
Reinhard

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hi Reinhard,

the pics were glamorous, but I was unable to translate your sentences, sorry. Is available some further photo, mayne the two ex Thai cruisers or the TA 44 Pigafetta? Perhaps the 37 mm of the Henriquez collection was, instead on that DD (it would be, anyway, the first mistake by that collector), and the original label of the museum is wrong.

Welcome back Renè. Your documents are, again, very interesting. The LG will leave tomorrow. Let me know when it will arrive there.

   Good night

      EC

[Leutnant Werner]

@Rene, Reinhard: 

[t-geronimo]

Reinhard mentioned that the main battery of Conte di Cavour was discussed in the war diary of the german naval supreme command several times.
He will read occasionally there.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Danke Geronimo, I had understood exactly the inverse.

     Herzlichkeit

         EC

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Gentlemen,

I was able to find the triple 320 mm tower from Cavour.
The Rivista Marittima, May 1951, page 268, stated she was in the Henriquez Museum. It had been remived from Cavour by the Germans during Autumn 1944, but she never leaved Triest. When the battleship sunk she capsized and the other towers were lost on the bottom of the gulf.
May you would be able to discover by photos or documents which tower was and if the German Navy armed that ship as a floating battery?
A more and more curious

         EC   

[Enrico Cernuschi]

And a photo of the guns, dated 1954, emerged from a book by Erminio Bagnasco, "Aldo Fraccaroli, fotografo navale", page 100.

   EC

[Zerstörerfahrer]

Hallo Freunde, 

es geht weiter. Meldung vom 16.10.1944




Grüße
René

[t-geronimo]

 

[Zerstörerfahrer]

04.10.1943

[TD]

Hallo Renè,

prima !

Jetzt wo ich die Seiten sehe habe ich auch die Info vor Augen.

Aber das ist ja nun der wunderbare Vorteil wenn wir / du / Filme der KTBs haben mit den ganzen Text.

Man konnte ja nicht das ganze KTB als Kopie bestellen, abschreiben erst recht nicht.

So kann man immer bestimmte Sachen nachblättern und finden ( wenn ein aufmerksamer Mann vor der Röhre sitzt !!).

Gruß


Theo

[Peter K.]

... aus dem KTB Admiral Adria vom 30.12.1943: