Vorpostenboote für Seelöwe

[Knouterer]

I could hang this onto the thread on "Armament of Seelöwe transporters", but it is more orderly to start a new one, I guess.
Anyway, I'm trying to work out what the armament of the Vorpostenboote looked like.

The book "Seekrieg im Ärmelkanal" by Naims/Frädrich (2003, on the 15th Vp Flottille) is very informative and detailed on this point.

Originally this flotilla consisted of 9 whaleboats (Walfangboote) of between 348-381 tons (except Wiking 10 which was 470 GRT), strongly built boats with a good turn of speed of about 14 knots, which the Kriegsmarine requisitioned in the autumn of 1939 as they were preparing for the whaling season.

To the crews of about 15 men were added another 15 navy personnel, and the harpoon gun in the bow was replaced by a single 20 mm c/30. Incidentally, both the army and the navy complained about the slow cyclic rate of this gun (and about persistent reliability problems) and from 1940 it was supplemented, but never entirely replaced, by the FLAK 38 with a higher rate of fire (c/38 to the navy). Fittings for 2 or 4 depth charges were also added.

After taking part in the Norway campaign, where the 15th sustained losses through mines and torpedoes, 5 ships (V 1501, 1505, 1506, 1508 and 1509) had a 37 mm AT gun (PAK 35/36) mounted in the bow; the 20 mm guns were moved to the stern. The 37 mms were intended for use against surfaced submarines but were never used in action, and crews were glad to exchange them (in June 1941) for a second 20 mm.

On 1 Sept. 1940 the 15th was ordered south to the Channel, to join the forces of Führe der Vorpostenboote West (FdV West).

During transit (9 Sept, Wesermünde) slips or slides for Sturmboote were fitted to the five available boats  (V 1505, 1507, 1508, 1510, 1512).

On 23.9, the Flottille reached its new base at Fécamp. A sixth boat, V 1511, joined at the end of Sept/beginning of Oct.  As we know, according to the Seelöwe plans they would have escorted Transportflotte D from Boulogne. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that V 1511 would have hurried a bit more if the order for Seelöwe had been given.

We have thus six boats. According to Gröner (Band 8/1, page 160), Unitas 6, 7, 8 (replacements for lost boats) also carried a 37 mm Pak, and his drawing also shows a 20 mm at the stern if I'm not mistaken, so we can assume identical armament :
V 1505 (ex Wal , 348 GRT, 1 x 37 mm Pak, 1 x 20 mm Flak;
V 1507/II (ex Rau I), 354 GRT, 1 x 37 mm Pak (?), 1 x 20 mm;
V 1508 (ex Rau III), 354 GRT, 1 x 37 mm Pak, 1 x 20 mm Flak;
V 1510 (ex Unitas 6), 341 GRT, 1 x 37 mm Pak, 1 x 20 mm Flak;
V 1511 (ex Unitas 7), 341 GRT, 1 x 37 mm Pak, 1 x 20 mm Flak;
V 1512 (ex Unitas , 341 GRT, 1 x 37 mm Pak, 1 x 20 mm Flak.

Later on, armament was upgraded a bit with various captured machine guns (Darne, Hotchkiss, Maxim ...) which crews managed to obtain from army depots. Naims/Frädrich note with admirable precision that V 1509 (which had been heavily damaged by a mine in August and only rejoined the flotilla in November) received its first MG34 (just one) on 18.2.1941.

[Leandros]

Hi, K - this conforms well with Klee - he states: 15. VP-flotilla - 5 fischdampfer. The other VP-flotillas for beach "D" was: 16. and 18. - each 6 boats. In all he lists 9 VP-flotillas for the various beaches.
He also lists 9 "light" (trawler, loggers, pilot boats) minesweeper-flotillas, having up to 20 boats each (somewhat optimistic, I should think).

[Knouterer]

Hi L,

I think that we can distinguish two basic types in this context: the Walfangboote (whale catchers) that equipped the 13th and 15th Vp-flotillas and the Fischdämpfer (trawlers) that equipped most of the others.

The whaleboats were a bit smaller but generally about 2-3 knots faster and very sturdily built (naturally), and much prized by the units that had them.

To continue with the situation end of September, as far as I can make out. It should be noted that ships changed their numbers as flotillas were rearranged after losses: V 201 for example was attributed to the Seydlitz (8.10.1939), then to the Gebrüder Kähler (20.10.1939), then to the St. Pierre d'Alcantara (20.8.1943).

2. Vp-Flottille (from Ostend to landing zone B) (V 201 (ex Gebrüder Kähler), sunk by mine 5.9.1940):

V 202 (ex Hermann Bösch, type Wilhelm Loh, +475 BRT, 12 kn)
V 203 (ex Carl Röver)
V 204 (ex Zieten, 437 BRT, 12,5 kn) Judging by drawing in Gröner, p. 171, 1 x 88 mm, 2 x 20 mm (or HMG ?)
V 205 (ex Franz Westermann, typ Wilhelm Loh)
V 206 (ex Otto Bröhan, 510 BRT, 12,5 kn)
(V 207 not assigned in Sept? ex Heinrich Bueren  V 207 until 31.7.1940, again
from 1.11.1940?)
V 208 (ex R. Walther Darré, type Martin Donandt, + 380 BRT, 10 kn)
V 209 (ex Dr. Rudolf Wahrendorff, type Martin Donandt)
V 210 (ex Hinrich Hey, + 430 BRT, 12,5 kn)
V 211 (ex Seydlitz)
V 212 (ex Friedrich Busse, sister ship of Zieten)

3. Vp-Flottille (from Dunkirk to landing zone B), (V 301 ex Weser sunk on 25.11.1939, V 304 ex-Breslau sunk on 17.9.1940):

V 302 (ex Bremen)
V 303 (ex Tannenberg) : 1 x 88 mm, 2 x 20 mm
V 305 (ex Ostpreussen) : 1 x 88 mm, 2 x 20 mm
V 306 (ex Fritz Hinke)
V 307 (ex Württemberg)
V 308 (ex Oscar Neynaber)
V 309 (ex Martin Donandt)

In various Seelöwe discussions mention is made and pictures are shown of Vp-Boote bristling with AA guns of various calibres, but that was not what they looked like in the fall of 1940.

The very effective quadruple 20 mm (Flakvierling 38) for instance did not enter production before the end of 1940 and was not seen on Vorpostenboote before the second half of 1941.

Picture of V 209 in 1941 (allegedly):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/muckelchen/4571156133/

The usual armament of the ships of these two flotillas seems to have been one 88 mm (First World War guns, some of them altered to fire the same ammunition as the newer SKC/30) and one 20 mm C/30, plus perhaps a machine gun or two.
Gröner (Volume 8/1, page 215) shows a drawing representing boats of the 4th flotilla in 1940 with a twin-barreled gun in place of the 88 mm, which I would tentatively identify as a twin 37 mm SKC/30.
As the war went on armament was continually increased, generally starting at the end of 1940/beginning of 1941 with a second 20 mm on an elevated gun platform behind the 88 mm.

The above is of course partly speculation on my part, if anyone has more precise information I'd be interested to hear it.

[Bergedorf]

Moin Gerard,

die Hilfs-MS und auch einige der Vp-Flottillen waren eher mit 7,5cm als mit 8,8cm Geschützen ausgerüstet. z.B:
4. Vp-Fl.:nach SeeBfh. West: 1-8,8, 8-7.5, 1-3,7 Doppelflak, 15 MG C/39, 30 MG 08
20. Vp-Fl.:  3-7,5cm fr; 1-3,7cm fr, 2-2,5cm fr. Flak, 12 lMG fr. +(unleserlich) MG C/30 auch nach Seebef West. Datum hab ich auf die schnelle in meiner Datei nicht gefunden, war aber aus dem September 1940.

Gruß

Dirk

[AndreasB]

Die 7,5cm waren ex-polnische oder franzoesische FK M1897, nehme ich an?

Alles Gute

Andreas

[Bergedorf]

Hallo Andreas,

bei der 20. Vp-Fl. waren es französische Beutegeschütze. Bei der 4. Vp-Fl. und sonstigen älteren Verbänden bin ich mir nicht sicher. Ich würde eher diese vermuten:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_3-36_skc34.htm

Gruß

Dirk

Nachtrag: Ich hab noch mal ins KTB der 20. Vp-Fl. geschaut. An einer Stelle werden sie als Sk und an anderer Stelle als Beutekanonen bezeichnet. Dürfte sich also wohl um französiche Seezielkanonen gehandelt haben.

[Leandros]

Boy, oh boy - I'd pay good money for the complete Gröner book series...

This is obviously a large subject and based on the preliminary information posted here these flotillas, as a total, seemingly had a lot of firepower. This was proven in the escort service given by these as the war progressed. Ruge quotes some impressive statistics in his book, even if there is some complaining. Naims/Frädrich, too - I have their book.

Klee quotes in all, in addition to the "normal" minesweeper flotillas, 9 aux. MS-flotillas and 9 VP-flotillas with, in all, 118 vessels. If we deduct 20% for various reasons it is still almost 100 vessels with various sorts of armament. In addition 12. U-jagd-flotilla and 4 R-flotillas with ca. 30 boats - 2 R-flotilla (5 and 7 were establishing at the time).

It is obvious when studying this subject that the armaments were very much increased as the war progressed so some information might not necessarily be correct for the period September 1940.

[Bergedorf]

Lieber Leandros,

die von mir zitierten Bewaffnungen stammen aus einem Dokument des Seebefehlshabers West aus dem September 1940. Da dieser (Lütjens) die Aufgabe hatte die Transportflotten zu organsieren und zu befehligen, , ist es denke ich eine ganz gute Quelle. Ferner ergeben sich ab und an Angeben aus den KTBs der einzelnen Flotillen. Aber wenn man meint, das Sekundärliteratur besser ist, dann bitte.

Die 12.UJ-Flotille befand sich übrigens zur Hälfte inn Lorient. Aufgabe der Flotille bei Seelöwe wäre es gewesen die Einsatzhäfen zu schützen und zum Bergen von evtl abgetriebenen Prähmen zur Verfügung des FdV stehen. (vgl. Seebefehlshaber West 30.08.1940 Gkdos 311/40 A1 Chefs.)


Gruß

Dirk

Edit: Beitrag zur UJ-Flotille ergänzt bzw. korriegiert

[Leandros]

Lieber Leandros,

die von mir zitierten Bewaffnungen stammen aus einem Dokument des Seebefehlshabers West aus dem September 1940. Da dieser (Lütjens) die Aufgabe hatte die Transportflotten zu organsieren und zu befehligen, , ist es denke ich eine ganz gute Quelle. Ferner ergeben sich ab und an Angeben aus den KTBs der einzelnen Flotillen. Aber wenn man meint, das Sekundärliteratur besser ist, dann bitte.

Gruß

Dirk

Edit: Beitrag zur UJ-Flotille ergänzt bzw. korriegiert

Dear Dirk, please misunderstand me correctly........

Information sources as you quote them are of course excellent. If you could point me to any German naval KTB's of the period I'd be very grateful. That said, I wouldn't exactly call Ruge secondhand information. Or a current biography of an actual participant, for that matter.

One thing about the document you mention (Lütjens) - without knowing the exact text, I think such documents cannot always be read categorically. While they might be instructions on how things are supposed to be, it doesn't always mean that they are actually executed at the time.

I appreciate your time.

Fred

[Bergedorf]

Hallo Fred,

natürlich ist das (übrigens sehr lesenwerte) Werk von Ruge Sekundärliteratur genau so wie jede Biographie es wäre. Die Listen des Seebefhlshabers West habe ich m.E. auf einer NARA-Roll der MArinegruppe West gefunden. Leider habe ich in meinen Dateien auf die Schnelle nicht die genaue Fundstelle und ich habe hierfür jetzt auch keine Lust einige tausend Seiten Dokumente auf dem Rechner zu durchforsten.

Eine kleine Berichtigung muss ich jedoch vornehmen. Die Liste scheint nach meiner Aufzeichung vom 28.8.1940 zu stammen.

Und wenn Du meinst, dass soll nur einen Soll-Zustand darstellen (worauf nichts hindeutet) ...meinetwegen, dann dürfte der Ist-Zustand ja noch schlechter sein 

Gruß

Dirk