V 1501 / Wiking 7

[cam]

26.– 27.9.1943
Kanal
Brit. Angriff auf einen dt. Konvoi mit dem Frachter Madali (3019 BRT), der von Le Havre nach Dünkirchen marschiert. Geleitsicherung durch M 507/ Von der Groeben und M 534/ Jungingen, die Minensucher M 82, M 84 und Vorpostenboot V 1507. Während die brit. MGB 108, MGB 118 und MGB 117 versuchen, weitere Sicherungsfahrzeuge der 15. Vp.-Flottille (KKpt. Rall), V1501, V1509, V1511, V1512 sowie der 2. M-Flottille (KKpt. Pinkepang) von der Seeseite her anzugreifen, greifen die niederl. MTB 202, MTB 204 und MTB 231 (Lt. Larive) sowie das brit. SGB4/ Grey Fox (Lt. Scott) und 3 weitere SGB vor Fécamp und Bercq-sur-Mer von der Küste aus an und versenken V 1501/ Wiking 7, den Frachter Madali und das Begleitschiff M 534 / Jungingen. — Bei L'Abervrach geht das Minensuchboot M 4616 / Maurice-Jacqueline durch Strandung verloren.

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-09.htm

V 1501/ Wiking 7 was not part of the convoy Madali. Freighter was sunk at Berck-sur-Mer, and V 1501 - at Cape Antifer. As  died V 1501?

[t-geronimo]

I don't understand your question. What are you asking for?

[cam]

Where and how the battle was lost V1501? Who sank?

[cam]

 27.09.43 Channel Coast :

The convoy of the steamer MADALI was repeatedly
attacked by enemy PT boats while on passage from Le Havre
to Boulogne. The patrol vessel VP "1501" was torpedoed and
sunk of Fecamp, and the MADALI (3,019 BRT) and the JUNGINGEN
(800 BRT) presumably southwest of Berck sur Mer. The losses
in personnel were considerable. The 15th Patrol Vessel
Flotilla probably sank two motor gunboats and the other escort
vessels and the artillery carrier group protecting the
convoy definitely sank two PT boats.

https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann491943germ/wardiarygermann491943germ_djvu.txt

26-7/9/43   MTB 202 (SO embarked), MTB 204 and MTB 231 with MGB 108, MGB 117 and MGB 118 from 9th MGB Flotilla are directed to intercept two merchant ships believed to be leaving Le Havre and proceeding through the Straits of Dover.
c0200   MTB 202, MTB 204 and MTB 231 with MGB 108, MGB 117 and MGB 118 arrive at the Berck Buoy (Seven miles offshore and twenty five miles from Boulogne then come to a halt five miles offshore.
0308 The enemy are sighted. MTB 202, MTB 204 and MTB 231 with MGB 108, MGB 117 and MGB 118 move to about two miles offshore.
0320   Starshell bursts overhead and the force moves out of the illuminated area as quickly as the weather will allow and move ahead of the convoy which is escorted by none E/R Boats. MGB 108, MGB 117 and MGB 118 make a diversionary attack. MTB 202, MTB 204 and MTB 231 move inshore again before making a torpedo attack on a large three island merchant ship. Five torpedoes are fired and one misfires. MTB 204 achieves one definite hit Several further attempts are made to fire the remaining torpedo. V 1501 / Wiking 7, the Freighter Madali (3019 BRT) and M 534 / Jungingen are sunk. The Minesweeper M 4616 / Maurice-Jacqueline is lost by stranding near L'Abervrach
c0500   MTB 202, MTB 204 and MTB 231 disengage.

http://cfv.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=174

[t-geronimo]

Ok, now I understand. 

You are right, those two actions are different ones. The descriptions are somewhat misleading and suggest that the attacks belonged together.


From war diary Marinegruppenkommando West:

First action:

Convoy "Madali" (Madali, 2 Vp-boats, 2 R-boat-Begleitschiffe, 3 modern M-boats) left Le Havre at 18:30 on 26.09.1943.

From 04:13-04:23 first attack from 7 s-boats southwest of Boulogne, BF 3383. No casualties.

Form 05:04-05:15 second Attack from s-boats in BF 3359 (which is off Berck-sur-Mer). 05:04 R-boat-Begleitschiff Jungingen was hit by one torpedo and sank.
05:05 Madali was hit by one torpedo and 05:06 by a second. The ship sank within one minute.

During the following rescue operations which last till 06:25 two more attacks by s-boats were repelled.


Second attack:

At 20:00 on 26.09.1943 three Vp-boats of 15. Vp-Flottilla left Le Havre for patrol to the east. (I think that this purpose is meant by the german word "Wegeablaufen").

At 03:55 thy were attacked by enemy s-boats of Cap d'Antifer. V 1501 was hit by one torpedo which caused her to sink within 10 seconds.



Auf deutsch:
Die Beschreibungen bei WLB und den anderen Quellen sind etwas irreführend und suggerieren, dass alles zusammengehört.

Aus dem KTB MGK West liest es sich aber folgendermaßen, s.u. im Anhang.


Die beiden Angriffe gehören demnach also nicht zusammen.

[cam]

Thank you very much!
And we know what Vp-boats of 15. Vp-fleet, than V 1501, were on patrol?


The English writes that in this battle sank М 534 / Jungingen, but I haven't found confirmation in the German sources. That part of the convoy Madali
PA 2 was was the first of the class to be put into active service sometime at the beginning of September 1943 with the 15th Vorpostenflottille. The date given at Gröner is incorrect, since the first recorded action of PA 2 was in the night from 26th to 27th of September 1943. PA 2 at that time was on convoy duty, escorting the freighter MADALI together with the minesweeper M82 and M84, VON DER GROEBEN, JUNGINGEN and V1507 of the 15th Vorpostenflottille. The convoy was attacked by MTB of the Dutch navy together with British MGBs. Result of the action: JUNGINGEN damaged and MADALI sunk by torpedos.
http://www.cbrnp.com/RNP/Flower/PROFILE/German_Flower.htm

[bodrog]

@t-geronimo

die fehlende 4. Seite wäre wegen ihrer Schlussfolgerungen eigentlich noch interessanter gewesen...

MfG 

[cam]

The Battle of the Narrow Seas, by Peter Scott
Action off Cap d'Antifer
On the night of the 27th September Scott was in command of a force of four S.G.B.s: 'It was a night of brilliant phosphorescence and heavy storms, with lightning but no thunder. The four of us had been down to Le Havre and drawn blank, and we swept northward again towards Cap d'Antifer. Just before 2:00am we found the enemy and stalked him for about an hour. I wondered if he would sight us in the lightning flashes, but I finally came to the conclusion that, unless someone happened to be looking directly as us at the moment of the flash, he wouldn't. There was a very black storm approaching from the nor'-nor'-east, and we decided that there was a good chance of an unobserved attack if we could time it to coincide with the arrival of the storm. Gradually we worked our way round until the black cloud of it was behind us, and then we turned in to close the enemy as the storm broke. The hail pattered down on our tin helmets and the night was inky black. We came down the wind so that it was at our backs; all sight of the enemy ships was blotted out, and it was useless to try to use glasses because of the rain. Lieutenant Peter Mason, the Commanding Officer of the boat (Grey Fox), was at the torpedo sight and I stood just behind him. Rather impatiently I kept asking, "For Heaven's sake, can't you see them yet", for I knew we must be getting close. Suddenly he saw them and said very calmly, "Yes, I can see them now- port ten." The range was less than 600 yards when he fired both torpedoes. The enemy had been unable to keep a lookout upwind into the driving hail, and he seemed to be taken completely by surprise.
We disengaged to starboard and fired a spread of starshells. By their light we saw two trawlers quite close together. The First Lieutenant, John Erskine Hill, put the guns onto the second one and opened fire at once. From that time on the illumination was continuous, partly supplied by our second in line and partly by the Germans. Although the rain restricted the area of starshell illumination, the scene directly below the bright white light seemed to be quite as bright as day. The two trawlers were so unready that they did not reply at all and all our guns ripped into the second one, which was about 300 yards away. A small fire appeared to start at once, just forward of the bridge.
Suddenly I saw a third trawler right ahead, and as we turned to starboard it came down the port side at very close range. Just as Erskine Hill, without a moment's delay, made all his guns change target to this trawler, there was an explosion on the after end of the leading trawler as our torpedo hit. A vivid flame of cherry red, with streaks of blue and green in it, shot out of her- not vertically, but sloping to the right, and after it had gone there was a white column of either smoke or spray, which must have been at least 100 feet high. At the same time all guns engaged the third trawler, now no more than 60 yards away. I think that one small machine gun was firing back at us, but that was all, and everything we had was going into her. The gunners couldn't miss. There was a roar of escaping steam, and suddenly a white cloud came out of the ship's stern. Whether this was steam or white smoke, I don't know. At the same time she altered course to port around our stern. Bits were flying off the upper works as every gun hit. At that range and with bright starshell illumination, it was quite impossible to miss
As soon as we had passed this third trawler, two more ships began firing at us out of the rain. The fire was not very accurate, although we were hit twice by 20mm shells in the port torpedo tube. The torpedo had already gone, and so these two hits did practically no damage, although a splinter scratched the midshipman's ear. We increased speed an disengaged. We were 3,000 yards from the cliffs of Etretat, we had achieved complete surprise and fired our torpedoes, we had emptied our Ready Use ammunition lockers into the third trawler, but the Hun was now fully roused. The starshells burst continuously overhead and the shore batteries joined in with a vengeance. I collected the flotilla together, and found that two of them had not yet fired their torpedoes. It was after 4:00am, the wind had freshened to about Force 5 from the north, and the sea was rising. I thought the time and weather were not very promising for another attack, and so we set off for home. The Germans kept firing their starshells for another half-hour, by which time we were well on our way to Newhaven.
We all four entered the harbour in company at 7:20am. The only damage suffered by the whole force was the two 20mm holes in the port torpedo tube and the only casualty was Peter Platt, the midshipman, with a scratch on his ear. He was most annoyed when I insisted he should go to the sick bay to have the blood washed off it before he came into breakfast.' (ibid).

[t-geronimo]

Thank you very much!
And we know what Vp-boats of 15. Vp-fleet, than V 1501, were on patrol?

Sorry, I don't know. I don't have the war diary of 15. Vp-Flottilla.

The English writes that in this battle sank М 534 / Jungingen, but I haven't found confirmation in the German sources.

Then you do not have had a look at the documents I showed you above. I told you what is written there.....

@t-geronimo

die fehlende 4. Seite wäre wegen ihrer Schlussfolgerungen eigentlich noch interessanter gewesen...

MfG 

Wir Dir auch nicht weiter helfen.
Aber die 4.-6. Seite tun es vielleicht.

[bodrog]

Vielen Dank t-geronimo  - das ist wirklich sehr interessant...

[cam]

Thank you, t-geronimo!
Während die brit. MGB 108, MGB 118 und MGB 117 versuchen, weitere Sicherungsfahrzeuge der 15. Vp.-Flottille (KKpt. Rall), V1501, V1509, V1511, V1512 sowie der 2. M-Flottille (KKpt. Pinkepang) von der Seeseite her anzugreifen, greifen die niederl. MTB 202, MTB 204 und MTB 231 (Lt. Larive) sowie das brit. SGB4/ Grey Fox (Lt. Scott) und 3 weitere SGB vor Fécamp und Bercq-sur-Mer von der Küste aus an und versenken V 1501/ Wiking 7,
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-09.htm
Maybe it's shown here Vp-boats?

[TW]

Frädrich und Naims ("Seekrieg im Ärmelkanal", S.114) beschreiben das MADALI-Geleit als unter Führung des Chefs der 18. V-Flottille stehend. "Neben seinen Booten gehören zum Geleitschutz die R-Boot-Begleiter VON DER GROEBEN und JUNGINGEN, die Minensuchboote M82 und M84 und von der der 15. Flottille V1507 (Lt.z.S. Merckens) sowie PA2 [Anm.: ex Korvette HALLEBARDE]."

Bei der Patrouille, aus der V1501 (Lt.z.S. Haack) verloren ging, handelte es sich angeblich um ein "Lockvogel"-Unternehmen. Der Verband bestand aus 4 Booten unter Kommando des Chefs der 15. V-Flottille auf V1501, gefolgt von V1511 (OStrM Maier), V1512 (Olt.z.S. Roemer) und V1509 (Olt.z.S. Schulz). Das Gefecht wird ausführlich auf S.114-115 beschrieben.

Auf S.115 gibt es [überraschend] folgenden Absatz:
"Außer GREY FOX ist da noch die GREY OWL, die (...) vom Verband abgekommen ist. (...) Die GREY OWL (Lt. Richard M Hall) greift etwa 45 Minuten nach dem Hauptgefecht unter der Küste von Etretat mit 2 Torpedos an, welche jedoch die Minensucher verfehlen."

Welche Minensucher ? Die STEAM GUN BOATS waren ja auf die VP-Patrouille angesetzt. Von M-Booten war aber lediglich im Zusammenhang mit dem MADALI-Geleit die Rede. Sieht so aus, als ob GREY OWL am Ende doch noch auf das MADALI-Geleit gestoßen ist.

Falsch, die SGB waren auf das MADALI-Geleit angesetzt, die verwirrende Vermischung der Angriffe kommt aus dem Buch von Naims und Frädrich, und hat eben auch mich erwischt.

Schönen Gruß,
Thomas

[cam]

Thank you, Thomas.

Peter Scott descriptions of combat do not pay attention to time-stamp events of the battle. The big request to the chronology of the battle.

Schönen Gruß,
Sergey

[Darius]

Hi,

inzwischen haben wir zu dem Gefecht in der Nacht 26./27.09.1943 diesen Eintrag in der "MTB- und MGB-Gefechte"-Datenbank:
  https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/mtb_mgb/beschreibung.php?site=3&var1=wert1&var2=wert2




Darius