Good evening Gentlemen,
beyond the Ophelia and the Praesident did the German Navy lose any other hospital ships during World War One? Infos about damages and attacks against any other German Hospital ships would be welcome too.
I must add I could offer little in change about this matter as no Italian Hospital ship was attacked during that same war. One small ship under the red cross, the Marechiaro, was sunk by a mine off Durazzo and an other one Koenig Albert, stopped, searched and realased by the AH submaruine U 11 (alias a German boat)
Greetings
EC
:?
EC
Zur "König Albert" siehe auch hier:
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,10466.0.html
Thank you for the ref. about the Koenig Albert.
I dare to add an extra topic question at my prevuous research. Did the German Hospital ships in the North Sea, Baltic and Atlantic theaters of operation suffer any attack on 1939-1943?
Greetings
EC
As far as I know "Präsident" never was a hospitalship. She only tried to claim she was such a ship when she was detected by British forces 18.10.14 (A. Kludas, Die Schiffe der deutschen Afrika-Linien 1880 - 1945. She is missing in the list of the German hospital ships printed in Die deutschen Lazarettschiffe im Zweiten Weltkrieg, too).
But the "Tabora" was used as auxiliary hospital ship at Daressalam. In the first mentioned book there is a picture showing her in 1914 with a Red Cross painted at the hull, but with an appearance otherwise unchanged. "Tabora" was sunk by gunfire of British warships at Daressalam 23.03.16.
An hospital ship sunk by gunfire is a big piece of news. All they needed was to be denounced at Geneva, to have the medical personnel and facilities and to be marked by red crosses and a green band according the Hague Convention signed on 1907.
May I dare to ask if ther's any further infos about attacks (or even sinkings) against German Hospital ships between 1914-1918 and 1939-1943 (the 1944-1945 time can be reconstructed easy by the Groener)?
Thank you again
EC
Hello Enrico,
if you have the Gröner, so you know the sinking of Stuttgart and Birka 1943:
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/km/laz.htm
Stuttgart:
--/>/> http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/miszellen/stuttgart.htm
Birka:
--/>/> http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-05.htm
and an attack in May 1942 by M-172: http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/42-05.htm
:MG:
Darius
Hi Darius,
thank you for the ;ay 1942 episode. Do you know if it was bu night or day and if the Soviet sub launched intentionally against an Hospital ship or if, for example, it was foggy.
My interest about before Sept. 1943 episodes such as this in Europe is dictated by the purpose to verify if there really a more cruel war conduct after the Italian armistice which had operative effects on naval warfare.
Greetings
EC
I think we can exclude the "Birka", for a mine is no intentional aggression against a hospital ship.
But in the same month there was another attack by "M-172" against the hospital ship "Fasana":
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-05.htm
Another ship you can discuss: "the "Strassburg" ex Dutch "Baloeran". While the mine damage 01.09.43 was no intentional attack against a hospital ship, some days later there were bombing attacks against the ship lying on a shallow, which stopped any attempts to rise the ship. But again there are some doubts whether this was an attack against an hospital ship, for pictures show the "Strassburg" with a cross at the funnel and a line around the hull, but at the same time in camouflage!!
And for "Stuttgart" just read the own German analysis to see it is at least very doubtful, if there was an intentional attack against a hospital ship:
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/miszellen/mail0171.jpg
http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/miszellen/mail0172.jpg
But a German ship in the Mediterranean might be of interest, too. The "Konstanz" ex Greek "Eleni":
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,7722.0.html
Did I translate correctly that Hospital ship was trying to pass Gibraltar and to sail in the Atlantic on May 1943 when she was seized by the British? :?
Thank you
EC
No!
For unknown reasons some sources say "Konstanz" was seized in the Straits of Gibraltar (that's why I asked, didn't believe this information), but in fact she was seized near Malta!
Hello,
from WAR CABINET WEEKLY RESUME (No. 194) of the NAVAL, MILITARY AND AIR SITUATION from 0700 May 13th, to 0700 May 20th, 1943:
Zitat5. The Italian hospital ships Laurana and Konstanz [sic, M.G.] were intercepted by
H.M. destroyers in the Sicilian Channel and escorted into Malta. A third
hospital ship, Toscana, bound for Kelibia, was intercepted and ordered to proceed
to Trapani.
:MG:
Darius
Danke KGVM, an other sea snake hit by an harpoon.
Darius, your source is quite interesting indeed. During 20 years of researches I was able to discovered plenty of British supposedly official infos contradicing themselves. For example I was able to supply my good friend Vince O'Hara eleven episodes of damages to HM ships by German surface vessels fire unknown by the usual literature (Playfair, Cunningham, Roskill, Taffrail, Macintyre ect.) by original reports of the times I discovered at the PRO and by some technical infos collected by the Royal Naval Constructors Corps during the war. He used these infos, with a zillion of other ones he was able to find thorugh the globe, in his The German Fleet at War 1039-1945 published on 2004 by the Naval Institute.
I believe that a check thorugh those Cabinet Weekly resumes studying some dates could provide some further forgotten episodes. Let me know if such a search is possible. I don't know if you are able to read Italian, but this is a link where you can find a book of mine to verify my methods of searches:
http://www.marina.difesa.it/editoria/rivista/rivista/2006/novembre/art04.asp
If such a search would be possibile a total new thead would be opened, of course.
With a renewed danke schoen (my German is little, but my hearth is candid) :O/Y
EC
Hallo Enrico,
http://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,11377.0.html
:MG:
Darius
P.S.: An die Technik. Evtl. sollte der Beitrag umgehängt werden oder aber umbenannt.
:MG:
:O/Y
hallo,
mein Englich ist gerade so, dass ich es einigermaßen lesen und verstehen kann oder wenigstens den Sinn verstehe.
Ist hier nicht von deutschen Lazarettschiffen des Ersten Weltkrieges gefragt worden ? Oder hab ich das falsch verstanden ?
es Grüßt der Hastei
Ja, so hat es angefangen, Enrico fragte nach Verlusten, Beschädigungen und Angriffen auf deutsche Lazarettschiffe im 1. Weltkrieg.
Mittlerweile ist das Thema allerdings ausgeweitet auf den 2. Weltkrieg bis 1943.
That's right. let me digest my ideas:
was is a dirty matter, but to study and, if possible, avoid war, a deep study about the deep nature of this phemonemon is necessary.
We know the concept of escalation since the Viteman war time, but it's actually as old as humanity.
Just to do an example Napoleon victories during his early campaigns had decisive effect against the single states he faced as soon as the enemy ot the time capital was seized, or little later.
On 1813 the part of Germany which was at war against the Emperor was no more a conglomerate of single capitals, but a people's war which was able to endure the defeats of the first half of that year fighting again until Leipzig, the crossing of the Rhein and the seizure of paris in spite of the further harsh defeates Napoleon was able to cause still on Spring 1814.
Before that escalation a single victory like the "unuseful ones" of the 1814 campaing would be able to settle the war, after it was not enough.
At sea the appreciation of similar escalation is easier as the tradition and the very few rules observed by sailors and warships and war are well known categories.
To verify if, before the great 1917 crisis between Germany and Britain about hospital ships, there were documented attacks or even sinkings of hospital ships would be, according my opinion, a good index of the developping nature of the war. I was able to find plenty of infos about real or alleged attacks against British and French Hospital Ships since 1915. I have got all I need about the Italian ones, the Russians and the Austro-Hungarian similar ships, but very little about the German ones, so any detail about them between 1914 and 1918 would be welcome.
The same principle for the Second World War. I believe that, after the Italian 8 sept,. 1943 armistice, the war (at sea too) become harsher and harsher and the simple record of the german Hospital Ships sunk since Autunm 1943 until 1945 I was able to find in a simple (but very appreciale and useful) digest like the Groener-Jung Die Schiffe der Deutschen Kriegsmarine und Luftwaffe 1939-1945 und ihr Verbleib, is a good ref. What I miss, during that second apocalyse, are the attacks against the German Hospital Ships before the Italian armistice to verify if my theory can be a sound one or not. As usual infos about British, Italian and French Hospital ships during that time are available easy. The real black hole is again, Germany (I don't know if the Soviet had similar vessels).
Thank you for the attention
Greetings
EC
hello, Enrico,
although it´s a further extension of the original topic: in my mind, there is a rather close relation to the regular shooting-down of German rescue aircraft ("Seenotflieger") He-59 over the Channel by RAF fighters before and during the Battle of Britain (it was discussed in more than one thread in this forum)
greetings, Urs
Hello Urs,
you are right and that vert matter is a good index of my researches. The British had adopted since Thrities the principle according which the rescue launches and the flying boats or floatplanes uses for that task had to be armed. The French the same The Luftwaffe and the Italian Services opted for the Red Cross protection. After the Royla Air Force begun her shooting, since early July 1940, against the German HE 59 in the Channel and the North Sea the Luftwaffe give up (exactly when?) the white crosses for camouflage and defensive weapons. The Regia Aeronautica and the Regia Marina, instead, remained stubbornly loyal to the red cross insignia until the 8 Sept 1943 armistice on their rescue floatplanes (all of the Cant Z 506 type) and their Navi Soccorso (small moortship or steamships with about a dozen beds capacity) in spite of many air attacks by the British.
As long as my researches about the violations of the Hague 1907 convention are going on it seems the British had, since 1914, a taste for free blood and destruction which could be explained only by a generic sense of security developed in the centuries living behind the natuial defense of the Channel or by a what an Italian of deep anti-fascist sentiments and immaculate democratic faith like Gaetano Salvemini called "the petty criminal nature of the Conservative party gentry before, between during and after the two world wars".
Before to subscrive such a defintive sentence, anyway, the more infos I'm able to pick up about the attacks against German Hospital ships between 1914 and 1919 and 1939-1943 the better.
Bye
EC
PS I admit such an argoument may be a sensitive one, but I believe that to appreciate correctly the choices and the spirits of the time before to judge, with today knowledge and sensibility, what happened needs, anyway, a study of what a commander or an admiral of that time could think about the chivarly (or not) of his adversary. I don't mean, of course, a generico propoaganda point of view, like the drawning of a crude and cruel Royal Navy sailor armed with a MG 34 !) with staind of blood on his uniform while boarding the Altmark and dominating a manifesto the effective Dr. Goebbels used at will on 1940. I mean a senior officier appreciation of facts about real circumstances, often not revealed tho the public opinion.
If anyone would translate or digest these thought in German he will deserve my :MG: