Hallo Thomas,
eine Kleinigkeit: Angriffsposition in ASA "NE" bei uboat.net "SE" von Ischia.
:MG:
Darius
moin,
aus navigatorischer Sicht macht nur SE Sinn, im NE liegen die Insel Procida, Untiefen und Land.
https://www.google.de/maps/@40.8042902,13.7607125,10z
Gruß, Urs
Erledigt.
Gruß, TW
Hello Thomas, Darius and Urs,
OLYMPUS' attack of 23.07.1941 was carried out in position 40°40' N, 13°59' E (SE of Ischia) on a convoy. The motorship CITTÀ DI TRIESTE reported missed by torpedoes at 1425 hours in position 146° - Punta S. Pancrazio (Ischia) - 2.5 miles. Unfortunately I have been unable (so far) to find the exact composition of this convoy which was travelling from Civitavecchia to Naples.
Platon
Vielen Dank Platon,
Bei einer Angriffsentfernung von 3000 Yards hat sich Cdr. Dymott in der Größe seines Ziels aber erheblich verschätzt. Er hat offenbar auch nur einen einzelnen Begleiter (Escort) ausgemacht.
Ich selbst sah übrigens viel mehr Schwierigkeiten bei dem Angriff 2 Tage zuvor, am 21. Juli 1941
-> http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,25115.msg283969.html#msg283969
Viele Grüße
Thomas
moin,
Zitat von: TW am 01 Dezember 2015, 09:19:53
Bei einer Angriffsentfernung von 3000 Yards hat sich Cdr. Dymott in der Größe seines Ziels aber erheblich verschätzt.
Ich könnte mir bei einer derart präzisen (23,000 statt z.B. ca 20,000 t) Angabe vorstellen, daß Dymott fälschlicherweise annahm,
Saturnia oder
Vulcania vor sich zu haben. Ich habe nun leider kein Bild der
Città di Trieste, das anhand einer (Un-)Ähnlichkeit eine derartige Hypothese stützen oder stürzen könnte.
With that rather precise (23,000 instead of approx. 20,000 t) target estimate I could imagine that Cdr. Dymott presumed to attack either
Saturnia or
Vulcania. Unfortunately I do not have a picture of
Città di Trieste, where a (un)similarity might support (or negate) that hypothesis.
Gruß, Urs
Urs, Cdr. Dymott nahm an, ein Schiff der Conte Grande-Klasse anzugreifen:
http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=1961
Und das waren Zweischornsteiner, ebenso wie die 1915 erbaute "Città di Trieste". Ansonsten sehe ich bei Betrachtung aus dem Lehnstuhl durchaus erhebliche Differenzen zwischen den beiden Typen, aber in der Hitze des Angriffs - und wenn dann die "Città di Trieste" womöglich noch bei den Schiffsskizzen im Talbot-Booth (oder was auch immer Cdr. Dymott zur Identifizierung der Feindschiffe an Bord hatte) fehlen sollte ...
moin, KG,
top :MG: .. aber vielleicht war auch der Wunsch der Vater des Gedankens.. :wink:
In Wouks The Winds of War nennt "Pug" Henry die Treffermeldung seines AO "kreatives Sehen" :-D
Gruß, Urs
I would like to make a correction to my previous posting. The position given as 146° - S. Pancrazio (Ischia) - 2.5 miles was given by OLYMPUS and not by the Italians who just mentioned "off Ischia".
Despite the description given by Dymott that the target was as a "CONTE VERDE" liner, I have found no evidence of the arrival of one of these liners in Naples but neither the war diaries of Supermarina nor those of Marinanapoli mention the arrival in Naples of a convoy of large liners on that day. But they do not mention either any detail on the CITTÀ DI TRIESTE convoy. Of course, an oversight is always possible or Dymott was prone to exaggeration...
Platon
Hallo TW,
der "Link 2" im Datensatz http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=1961 ist defekt.
:MG:
Darius
Hello Thomas,
The MARICOTRAF files show that the vessels in company with the motorship CITTÀ DI TRIESTE when she was attacked by OLYMPUS on 23.07.1941 were DIELPI (1527 GRT, 1912) and POMONA (2198 GRT, 1921) as they all sailed from Civitavecchia during the evening (1945-2315, the fastest CITTÀ DI TRIESTE sailed last) 22.07.1941 for Naples. In addition the auxiliary CITTÀ DI TUNISI also sailed at at 1930 for the same destination but travelled alone.
Thus it appears that CITTÀ DI TRIESTE, DIELPI and POMONA were most likely the targets, the two destroyers also seen as "escorts" were probably AVIERE and CAMICIA NERE as they sailed at 1300/23 from Naples for Taranto but were probably exercising in the bay of Naples before making their passage. In conclusion, Dymott appears to have grossly over-estimated the size of his targets, a problem not uncommon in submariners!
Best regards,
Platon
Hi Platon.
It is undoubtable that CITTA DI TRIESTE was the target, as, following Brian on uboat.net, she observed the attack at 14.25 h.
I don't understand the Italian's dealing with convoys. CITTA DI TRIESTE left Civitavecchia hours later than the other steamers, because she was the fastest ship. Nevertheless she was a lone sailing target, still running behind the other ships when passing Ischia.
Maybe the Italians declared CITTA DI TRIESTE, DIELPI, and POMANO as a convoy, but I will not follow. I would be rather more interested in the "small sloop", escorting the target.
Best regards
Thomas
Ich glaube, jetzt habe ich endlich ein Bild der CITTÀ DI TRIESTE gefunden. Danach hatte sie tatsächlich 2 Schornsteine, wie sonst keines der Schiffe mit Namen CITTÀ DI ...
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.histarmar.com.ar%2FArchivoFotosGral%2FBuquesExtranjeros%2FC%2Fcittaditriestelg.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.histarmar.com.ar%2FMarinaMercanteExtr%2FIndMME-C.htm&h=472&w=709&tbnid=0frb0sP-PXL1pM%3A&docid=axaIpzlzB7jceM&ei=HnNkVrn3LoidPKPar9gE&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1428&page=3&start=32&ndsp=21&ved=0ahUKEwi5_uDs48fJAhWIDg8KHSPtC0sQrQMIsAEwLw
Hello Thomas,
I believe I was the source of what Brian wrote on uboat.net about identifying CITTÀ DI TRIESTE as the target.
CITTÀ DI TRIESTE was not an auxiliary so the convoy was unescorted but initially all three ships were ordered to sail at the same time (at 1820/22 July) but later sailed individually to regroup at sea. DIELPI sailed first at 1945 (she was supposed to make 9 knots), POMONA sailed at 2045 (9.5 knots) and finally CITTÀ DI TRIESTE (11 knots) at 2315/22. Since the three ships had to adjust their speed to conform to that of DIELPI then it was not necessary to sail all together but they did arrive in a group. It was common for Italian merchant ships to sail unescorted north of Naples as British submarines were rarely seen in the North Tyrrhenian Sea or Ligurian Sea at that time.
I have no info of a patrol vessel escorting this convoy but probably an auxiliary from Naples sailed to meet them.
Platon
This is CITTA' DI TUNISI as an AMC (escort ship). Photo posted by Mauro Millefiorini (m1000f) on naviearmatori.