In seinem Buch "Home Waters. MTBs and MGBs at War" beschreibt Reynolds auf S.90 einen Angriff der 9th MGB Flottille (MGB 110, 117, 113) auf 4 "Flak-Trawler" bei Nieuport (Holland) am 5.4.1943 kurz nach Mitternacht. Einer der Trawler brennt, die anderen ziehen sich zurück. Der Trawler wird geentert, Signalbucher und Code-Unterlagen werden herausgeholt, Überlebende gefangen genommen. Dann wird der Trawler mit Wabo versenkt.
Meine Recherchen im "Gröner" ergeben, dass es sich bei dem Trawler um M3818 ex Arendje Jacobsen (KW 105) handeln müsste. Laut DDK VIII, S.347 versenkt im Kanal um 4h15 durch FliBo. Aber ich denke, bei der Schilderung von Reynolds kann kein Zweifel bestehen, dass hier wirklich und wahrhaftig ein Trawler von MTB 113 versenkt wurde.
https://www.google.de/maps/search/Nieuport,+Niederlande/@52.191735,2.7228482,7z
moin, Thomas,
Zitat von: TW am 02 September 2018, 10:36:44
Einer der Trawler brennt, die anderen ziehen sich zurück. Der Trawler wird geentert, Signalbucher und Code-Unterlagen werden herausgeholt, Überlebende gefangen genommen. Dann wird der Trawler mit Wabo versenkt.
Zumindest zu dem von mir fett gesetzten Inhalt müßte sich doch etwas im KTB der Flottille finden.
Gruß, Urs
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 02 September 2018, 12:46:11
Zitat von: TW am 02 September 2018, 10:36:44
Einer der Trawler brennt, die anderen ziehen sich zurück.
Zumindest zu dem von mir fett gesetzten Inhalt müßte sich doch etwas im KTB der Flottille finden.
Gruß, Urs
Ich wäre nicht so sicher. Wenn sich die anderen M-Boote zurückziehen statt zu kämpfen, dann melden sie das sicher nicht dem Flottillenchef. Dann melden sie vielleicht: "Bombenangriff und Ende. Wir konnten leider gar nichts machen".
P.S. Ich sammle die NARA-Rollen nicht. Auch wenn ich dann manchmal auf die Hilfe von Kollegen hier angewiesen bin, will ich doch nicht zig Gigabyte auf Festplatten horten, nur um manchmal etwas nachschauen zu können.
Hi,
Information from Reynolds should be checked by documents. The MGBs of the 9th Flotilla were armed with one pom-pom. M 3818 (ex-drifter 131 tons) could be hit and set on fire, and then finished off with aviation. Not reported because the radio was disabled. On the basis of what is the statement that the minesweeper sank the aircraft?
cam
moin,
Zitat von: TW am 02 September 2018, 10:36:44
.. bei Nieuport (Holland)
Sollte es sich um das belgische (flämische) Nieupoort handeln ?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieuwpoort
Die kleine holländische Stadt gleichen Namens liegt nicht am Meer.
.. und die verlinkte Google-maps-Position geht in die Mitte Belgiens :?
Gruß, Urs
Nieuwpoort, Belgium - it is a Belgian seaport and resort.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Tourism-g230023-Nieuwpoort_West_Flanders_Province-Vacations.html
cam
Zitat von: cam am 02 September 2018, 14:30:31
Hi,
Information from Reynolds should be checked by documents. The MGBs of the 9th Flotilla were armed with one pom-pom. M 3818 (ex-drifter 131 tons) could be hit and set on fire, and then finished off with aviation. Not reported because the radio was disabled. On the basis of what is the statement that the minesweeper sank the aircraft?
cam
The trawler was entered by the crew of MGB 113, they got signal and code books, they made prisoners, and finished the ship with a coup de grâce (depth charge).
You missunderstood my statement, cam
Not the minesweeper sank the aircraft but -
following DDK - the minesweeper was
sunk by aircraft.
Edit: British sources are MO 4435, MO 4637, ADM 199/1036, and the memoirs of Lt. Bray (MGB 113): One Young Man's War
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 02 September 2018, 14:56:18
Sollte es sich um das belgische (flämische) Nieupoort handeln ?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieuwpoort
Die kleine holländische Stadt gleichen Namens liegt nicht am Meer.
.. und die verlinkte Google-maps-Position geht in die Mitte Belgiens :?
Ihr habt Recht, es ist die belgische Stadt.Google Maps hat mir einen üblen Streich gespielt.
Ich war sicher, dass es Holland sein müsste, weil die 21st MTB (Dickens) von Felixstowe aus operierte und meistens vor Hoek van Holland.Gruß, Thomas
Edit: Es war ein Angriff der 9th MGB (Richards) von Ramsgate
It turns out that the Germans left their battered comrade and the British took him on boarding? What do the German documents write about this?
cam
5 April 1943
The minesweeper M "3818" sank in 3P 3386 at 0054 as
a result of an enemy air attack.
https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann441943germ/wardiarygermann441943germ_djvu.txt
cam
Do you really believe, cam, that German soldiers - leaving their comrades - would admit what they did? Maybe they lied, and told that the minesweeper was sunk by aircraft.
May be. But then we need English documents about this battle.
We need to ask for help from Darius.
cam
moin,
Zitat von: cam am 02 September 2018, 15:35:42
5 April 1943
The minesweeper M "3818" sank in 3P 3386
What kind of position indicator, in comparison to naval grid system, shall this be ?
Was für eine Positionsangabe, in Vergleich zur Marinequadratkarte, soll das sein ?
Gruß, Urs
Zitat von: Leonard Reynold, Home Waters, page 90
On 4/5 April the 9th MGB flotilla, led by Dicky Richards in MGB 110, followed by 117 (Outen) and 113 (Bray) was sent to patrol off Nieuport. At midnight they sighted a group of flak trawlers which seemed to have no inkling of the presence of the gunboats. Richards did not hesitate. Sweeping straight towards the nearest trawler, all three boats maintained very close station, firing their full broadsides with lethal effect. The trawler hardly had time to reply. But the others did – and all three MTBs were hit. But their selected target was stopped and burning fiercely, and when Richards led a second attack, it became apparent that the crew were already abandoning the ship and that the other trawlers had moved away, leaving the sinking ship to her fate. Richards ordered Michael Bray in 113 to rescue all the survivors he could, and send a party on board to try to prevent the trawler from sinking. Bray's first lieutenant, Sub Lt Bill Fesq, an Australian, bravely boarded the trawler. He quickly returned with signal and code books, but reported that the fires had gained control. Richards then send his motor mechanic aboard to open the sea cocks, but she did not seem to be settling very fast, so he decided to sink her with a depth charge. His own effort to do so failed, so Bray was ordered to try. As the trawler was stopped, Bray reasoned that it could only be done effectively by taking the MGB very slowly alongside – a dangerous prospect. They lashed a charge to an empty oil drum to slow down its descent, then bumped slowly along the side of the trawler; on a given signal they released the charge an then on full power roared away from the doomed trawler. The explosion came all too quickly, but the MGB was safe; the trawlers keel was broken and she sank.
British sources are MO 4435, MO 4637, ADM 199/1036, and the memoirs of Lt. Bray (MGB 113): One Young Man's War
Fine work, Thomas! top top top top top top top
It remains only to find out which other German ships took part in the battle.
cam
M.3818 was on patrol position "Ortrud" with M.3811. Time was around 04.30, when that rotte was attacked by brit. aircraft and sunk. M.3811 save crew and entered Dieppe.
MTB attacked near Nieuport group from 36 M-Fl, making sweep from Dunkirchen from 24.00. M.3630 radioed with message 02.50 that she in fight with MTB in AN8784 (5 miles west. N). M.3630 has 3 wounded but can escape. Boat, which was beaten, entered and sunk was HS.06. He was alone at position near Ostende, attacked in 02.45. Strange, but BSW was sure that secret documents was destoyed before boat was entered.
Hi,
This is about this ship in question?
https://wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?4776
In the quote of Thomas it is indicated that the MGBs attacked a group of trawlers. The sank ship (Hafenschutzflottille Ostende) was solitary.. Did he happen to be in the battle area?
cam
I can't say what boat was this HS.06. Groner say nothing clear about her - both loggers he give not lost 5.4.43. I think BSW also can have error in boat's designation. HS.*** means Hafenschutzflottille Kanalkuste. FO - same for Ostende. Indeed, in Groner FO.06 (D.MEERBURG SR.) sunk 5.4.43. So, looks like this was "HS.06".
Also MTB make clash with several separate german boats, thinking this was one group.
Hello,
Hier etwas über F0 06
mfG
Maurice
Zitat von: igor am 04 September 2018, 09:17:41
Also MTB make clash with several separate german boats, thinking this was one group.
Thank you.
Most likely it was so.
cam