Some sources have indicated that Rotor VIII was "pinched" by the Royal Navy in August 1940. I have been unable to find any mention of German vessel warship boarded in that month. Perhaps I have missed something. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion? I have been tempted to believe that the rotor was recovered by divers from the wreck of U-13 sunk on 31 May 1940 or perhaps found on one of the survivors such as happened with U-33 in February 1940. I would welcome comments.
Many thanks,
Platon
Hi Platon,
I'm sorry but cannot help with that question.
Best regards, Thomas
Hello Thomas,
Thank you for trying. The mystery remains!
All the best,
Platon
crolick has a hint here:
--/>/> http://warsailors.com/ships/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=365
Regards
Darius
Hello,
I haven't found any information to confirm your source yet. So far, I only know that the encryption process of the German Navy (a variant of Enigma-M3 with three out of eight cylinders (I to VIII) and a sophisticated message key agreement) was only used by the British in May 1941 after the capture of the German submarine U 110 and capture of an intact M3 machine and all secret documents (code books including the essential "double letter exchange tables") by the British destroyer HMS Bulldog on May 9, 1941.
PS: VIII was first used in the M3 from 1939 and later also in the M4 and the wiring was from ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ to FKQHTLXOCBJSPDZRAMEWNIUYGV.
Regards
Strandurlauber
Hello Strandurlauber,
Many thanks for your input and comments. The web site link provided by Darius on the warsailors forum is most interesting.
Although, at least one destroyer, Hans Lüdemann, was boarded after the second battle of Narvik, I have not found anywhere that secret documents were recovered from her. The code books recovered from the Q-ship Schiff 26 enabled the British to read Naval Enigma for a few days in April-May 1940 but there is no evidence that Rotor VIII was recovered at that time.
In 1939, the Poles had provided Rotors I to V. Two of the three Rotors recovered from U-33 in February 1940 were VI and VII so only VIII was missing. According to BP sources, Rotor VIII was recovered in August 1940. I am not sure the date is correct as I am unaware of any German vessel boarded at that time. I suspect that this may have occurred earlier. Candidates are U-13 sunk on 31 May 1940 (from which important documents were recovered although it is not clear if a Rotor was found) and U-26 sunk on 1 July 1940 with her entire crew picked up so perhaps a Rotor was found on one of them. Certainly, the capture of U-110 in May 1941 was a major leap forward. Your wiring details are very interesting, thank you.
All the best,
Platon
moin,
noch etwas mehr (aus der "Chronik des Seekriegs 1939-1945"):
3./4.3.1941
Norwegen / Funkaufklärung
Operation »Claymore«: Erfolgreicher brit. Vorstoß gegen Lofoten, dabei werden wichtige kryptologische Unterlagen erbeutet. Beteiligte Einheiten: Zerstörer Somali (Capt. Caslon), Eskimo, Tartar, Legion und Bedouin und die Landungsschiffe Queen Emma und Princess Beatrix mit 500 Mann Kommando-Truppen an Bord. ...
Doch dies ist jedoch nur die offiziell verbreitete Teil der Geschichte, der einen viel wichtigeren Erfolg überdeckt: Somali gelingt es, das Küstenschutzboot NN 04 / Krebs außer Gefecht zu setzen und zu entern. Dem Enterkommando fallen wichtige Schlüsselunterlagen in die Hände, die es der brit. Aufklärungszentrale Bletchley Park ermöglichen, für die Zeit vom 13.-23.2. und für verschiedene Tage nach dem 20.3. den dt. Funkverkehr mit dem Code »Heimische Gewässer« zu entziffern
----
Gruß, Urs
Hallo zusammen,
ich hätte als mögliche Quelle für Geheimmaterial noch U 49 in petto. Lt. Beckh, Joachim: "Blitz & Anker, Band II", S. 242, wurde bei der Versenkung des Bootes am 15.04.1940 die eigentliche ENIGMA-Maschine an Bord zwar zerstört. Die zugehörigen Walzen, die einigen Besatzungsangehörigen zur Vernichtung übergeben wurden, wurden in der Hektik der Gefangennahme aber in den Taschen der Kleidung vergessen.
Ich erlaube mir mal noch eine Anschlussfrage. In Darius' Verlinkung ist in einem --/>/> Beitrag (https://warsailors.com/ships/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=365#p1360) zu lesen:
Zitat
VP 2623 captured by HMS Griffin on April 26th, 1940?!
Mir will es weder gelingen, eine 26. Vorpostenflottille zu lokalisieren, zu der dieses Boot seiner Bezeichnung nach gehört haben müsste, oder überhaupt ein Fahrzeug mit der Kennung VP 2623 in der deutschen Kriegsmarine. Vielleicht kann jemand helfen, diesen Widerspruch aufzulösen.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Schorsch
Hallo Schorsch,
muss ein Tippfehler sein und crolick meinte sicherlich Schiff 26.
:MG:
Darius
Hallo Darius,
die Frage ist allerdings, wer den Schreibfehler zu verantworten hat. Die Information in der von crolick getätigten Form stammt nämlich aus Möller, E.: "Kurs Atlantik - Die deutsche U-Boot-Entwicklung bis 1945", Stuttgart: Motorbuch Verlag 1995 und ist dort auf Seite 28 zu finden. Aber ehe ich als kleines Licht anfange, an dem Stuhl einer Koryphäe zu sägen, frage ich lieber noch einmal nach.
Ich hatte übrigens auch schon die Vermutung, die Du als Erklärung angeführt hast. Es ist auf jeden Falle schön zu wissen, dass auch andere denselben Gedanken haben/hatten.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Schorsch
Many thanks to you all for your input.
Regarding the papers seized on U-49: these were essentially the Hartmut orders (U-boat orders for operation Weserübung) dated 10 and 30 March 1940 (with minor alterations dated 3 April 1940) and the Naval Grid Chart, probably just for the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea. However, the system used made it easier to guess the grid used for the Atlantic until more grid charts were recovered in 1941. They were very important as they revealed to the British the U-boat strength at that time and that estimated U-boat losses had been significantly less than what was estimated. Incidentally, the losses estimated by Captain Talbot, Director of the Anti-Submarine Warfare Division, were closer to reality and this infuriated Churchill who always estimated the losses to be much higher. The Prime Minister had Talbot removed from his post later in the year. The actual documents appear to have been lost as a search for them some 40 years ago was fruitless.
I did some research on Weserübung in the 70s and 80s and as far as I remember, there were no 26.Vorpostenbootflottille. Schiff 26 and Schiff 37 belonged respectively to 18 and 16.Vorporstengruppe. They were always referred to as Schiff 26 and Schiff 37 and I cannot remember from where V 2623 came about.
Regarding "pinches": the case of the armed trawler Krebs is well known, also that of the weather-reporting boats München and Lauenburg. Other U-boat materials also collected came from U-570, U-559, U-205 and U-505 and I am sure a few more. I seem to recall that the Soviets recovered torpedoes from one U-boat?
Best regards,
Platon
hello, Platon,
Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 03 Februar 2022, 20:29:05
I seem to recall that the Soviets recovered torpedoes from one U-boat?
yes,
U 250 (https://www.uboat.net/boats/u250.htm)
Gruß, Urs
Hello Urs,
Many thanks for reminding me that it was U 250. I believe the Soviets invited the British to examine the torpedo but I do not remember where I read that!
Best regards,
Platon
Hello Platon,
correct U250 (Type VII C) was sunk on July 30, 1944 off the Finnish coast by the Soviet submarine hunter MO 103 with 2 depth charges. Commander Werner-Karl-Schmidt (1915-2001) and 5 other crew members who were in the control center were able to reach the water surface through the tower hatch from a depth of 27 m and were taken prisoner, 46 other crew members died. In September 1944, despite the fact that the 5th S-Flotilla had been ordered to destroy the wreck with depth charges, it was able to be brought in at night and within range of Finnish coastal artillery and to Kronstadt.
In addition to the Enigma and documents, technology was also recovered, including the acoustic torpedo T5 Zaunkönig (GNAT) and information about it was sent to the british authorities (those responsible in the Soviet Admiralty paid a high price for this after the war, they were indicted, convicted and if they survived imprisonment, they were only rehabilitated in 1953 after Stalin's death).
Best regards,
Strandurlauber
Hello Strandurlauber,
Many thanks for the additional details. I see from the BdU KTB that operational areas in the Baltic were defined as "Bengal" and "Trinidad". Do you know the definition of these areas? Also who were the Soviet officials who were involved in passing the information to the British?
Best regards,
Platon
Zitat von: Strandurlauber am 04 Februar 2022, 09:46:02
In September 1944, despite the fact that the 5th S-Flotilla had been ordered to destroy the wreck with depth charges, it was able to be brought in at night ...
31.08.1944 - 01.09.1944
Minenunternehmung 5. S-Fltl (
S 65,
S 67,
S 68,
S 80,
S 85,
S 120) an der Untergangsstelle des deutschen Unterseeboots
U 250, um dessen Bergung durch sowjetische Streitkräfte zu verhindern, auf dem Rückmarsch geht
S 80 durch Minentreffer vor Viborg verloren
Anmerkung : Wasserbomben wurden nicht geworfen (siehe Anhang)
Gruß, Urs
Hello Urs,
Many thanks for the additional details. So the Schnellboote laid a minefield to hamper any attempt at recovery. How did they know the location of the wreck? It appears it was actually 2 miles to the south of the minefield. Was it from a visual report from a land observation post or was it from a B-Dienst intercept?
Best regards,
Platon
hello, Platon,
Zitat von: Platon Alexiades am 04 Februar 2022, 18:16:59
Was it from a visual report from a land observation post
As far as I understand the KTB, yes (the Finns had reported a marker buoy)
The supposed loss position mentioned in the KTB AO 3355 (http://www.navalgrid.com/find/square/ao%203355) M(itte) o(ben) is approximately 60°30'N, 028°24'E
That differs from the position given in u-boat.net (60°27,9'N, 28°24,9'E) by more than 2 nm
Gruß, Urs
Again many thanks Urs for clearing up these details.
Platon
Hello Platon,
Urs was faster again.
The assumption that the U250 sinking site was monitored from land is supported by an info in the "U-Boot-Archiv Wiki", in which the capture of the 6 survivors of U250 is reported: "Although at this moment Finnish coastal artillery from 10 km away fire was firing on the coast, they were picked up by MO 103".
In December 1947, Admiral W.F. Tribute, Admiral N.G. Kuznetsov, Admiral Lev Mikhailovich Galler, as well as Admiral Alafusov and Vice-Admiral Stepanov, were charged and punished with demotion or imprisonment, among other things, for passing on the documentation of the acoustic torpedoes of U 250 to the British. Galler died after four years in prison, the others survived. I do not believe that they personally submitted the information. They must have been subordinates, I don't know the exact details. I also consider this accusation to be Stalin's pretext to eliminate possible threats to his power.
Best regards,
Strandurlauber
Hello Strandurlauber,
Again many thanks for the additional details. I have a book by Kuznetzov about the Soviet Navy in WW2 and he made no mention of U 250. However it was published during the Cold War and at that time Soviet writers were not very generous with details about the Great Patriotic War!
Best regards,
Platon
Hello Platon,
I have the same impression, but it's been a long time since I read his books. He probably only learned English as an additional foreign language in the mid-1950s, after he was again demoted to vice admiral and dismissed (because he had protested against Khrushchev's cuts in the naval construction program). In addition to the books he wrote, he is said to have translated a lot of English-language specialist literature into Russian in the period up to his death, unfortunately the sources accessible to me do not specify exactly which ones.
But back to the original topic. Is there any information that the wreck of U13 (at a depth of 26-28 m similar to U250, with the diving technology of the time that was possible) was already searched by divers in 1940?
Your reference to U33 was also interesting. The "U-Boot-Archiv Wiki" states: "The British were able to recover three key rollers from the Enigma machine from the sunken submarine.". The wreck lies at 50-57 m depth, which is more difficult but not impossible for divers.
Best regards,
Strandurlauber
Hello Strandurlauber,
According to Captain Talbot, Director of A/S Warfare Division when interrogated by Sir William Jowitt (U-boat Investigation Committee) on 27 September 1940: "... we got divers into the boat and captured some very valuable information." During the investigation Enigma was never mentioned although it is clear that German signals had been deciphered. As far as I remember, there is no mention that the wreck of U-33 was penetrated but I will check my files to see if I can find anything on that.
The report of the sinking of U-33 makes no mention of the capture of the three rotors but this is certainly was kept secret. Apparently, ratings of U-33 were each given a rotor with the instruction to drop it in the water as far away of the sinking spot to make their recovery very difficult. Three ratings apparently forgot to do so.
Has anyone found any mention that these instructions were common in case a U-boat was operating in shallow waters?
Best regards,
Platon
Hello Platon,
(No reference to Rotor VIII on U33) "... rotors VI and VII — both of great importance to the cryptologists at Bletchley Park, as they are two of three special reels that had not been reconstructed by the Polish cryptologists. According to an official report by the Royal Navy, the roles were said to have been in the clothing of the captured chief engine mate Friedrich Kumpf. Years later, however, senior engineer Friedrich-Ernst Schilling stated that he too had parts of the Enigma in his pockets and that he managed to throw them out of the British lifeboat into the sea without the British seeing it." (Nigel Graddon: The Mystery of U-33: Hitler's Secret Envoy.)
I do not have the instructions of the Navy for such cases, if I find any information I will contact you.
Best regards,
Strandurlauber
Many thanks Strandurlauber.
Platon
No error about VP 2623 - the source is The National Museum of the Royal Navy:
https://twitter.com/natmuseumrn/status/857183841529802752
Based on this I found few additional sources:
https://books.google.pl/books?id=QAXMDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT36&ots=UYL7vP0KdB&dq=%22vp%202623%22%201940%20enigma&hl=pl&pg=PT37#v=onepage&q=%22vp%202623%22%201940%20enigma&f=false
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma
https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=27733.0
Hope that helps!!
Andrzej
Zitat von: Schorsch am 02 Februar 2022, 01:04:53
Ich erlaube mir mal noch eine Anschlussfrage. In Darius' Verlinkung ist in einem --/>/> Beitrag (https://warsailors.com/ships/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=365#p1360) zu lesen:
Zitat
VP 2623 captured by HMS Griffin on April 26th, 1940?!
Mir will es weder gelingen, eine 26. Vorpostenflottille zu lokalisieren, zu der dieses Boot seiner Bezeichnung nach gehört haben müsste, oder überhaupt ein Fahrzeug mit der Kennung VP 2623 in der deutschen Kriegsmarine. Vielleicht kann jemand helfen, diesen Widerspruch aufzulösen.
Das KTB
Schiff 26 (
Julius Pickenpack) sagt ganz klar (wenn auch teilweise handschriftlich), dass die Kennung vorher
VP 2623 war, siehe Anhang. (0031-0033)
Im März 1941 war der deutschen Marineführung scheinbar das Schicksal von
Schiff 26 und
Schiff 37 immer noch nicht ganz klar, aber man hatte konkrete Vermutungen.
Demnach sei die Besatzung von
Schiff 37 gefallen und die von
Schiff 26 in Gefangenschaft, zumindest zum Teil in Kanada.
Man beauftragte einen dort gefangenen U-Boot-Offizier, Kptlt. Schilling (eventuell Friedrich-Ernst-Otto Schilling von
U 33, also ausgerechnet dem Boot, das auch mit erbeuteten Enigma-Teilen in Verbindung stand...) mit Nachforschungen.
Diese ergaben (im November 1941!), dass
Schiff 26 geentert wurde und zumindest nicht alles Geheimmaterial vernichtet werden konnte.
(0097-0099)
Hello Geronimo,
Thank you for pointing out that V-2623 was initially used in September 1939. I have the KTBs of Schiff 26 and Schiff 37 (on 35mm microfilm rolls T1022/3050 and 3052 from NARA).
I had email exchanges with a relative of a crew member of Schiff 37 back in 2011. Apparently, the families were never informed of their fate. Perhaps, the British tried to keep secret the fate of the two vessels. After the June 1940 Armistice, the French authorities were approached by the German Navy to find out if they knew anything about it but apparently they were not aware of it. They floated the idea that perhaps they were sunk during the raid of 8th DCT (Contre-torpilleurs Division) in the Skagerrak (23-24 April 1940) but this was false (only V-702 was damaged).
Best regards,
Platon