I couldn't resist buying the latest Italeri S38/S26 Schnellboot kit. From posts in the Schnellboote thread of this forum I learned that it's not possible to build a correct S26 type boat straight from the box but only an early S38 type boat :
https://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=18105.1905
So I have decided to build an early S38 type boat with the Back Flak, mine rails and preferably sporting an attractive camo pattern. Several Schnellboot publications contain this, or a very similar, illustration of an S38 boat with this attractive camo scheme :
(https://i.imgur.com/ZM2oToOl.png)
According to Jean-Philippe Dalles-Labourdette's Schnellboot book S-62 would have sported this scheme but I get the impression this is not correct. Not only because there are so many other mistakes in this book but it's a scheme typical for the Baltic Sea and a quick look at S-62's Lebenslauf shows this vessel was never deployed there. I only know this pic of S-62 posted by Ola which clearly doesn't show any evidence of an elaborate camo pattern :
(https://i.imgur.com/9x9EE4Rl.jpg)
I wonder is the camo scheme of the illustration a mere product of fantasy or was it actually based on a real period photo, perhaps one of S-44 (Opdenhoff's previous boat). After all, S-44 was indeed deployed in the Baltic Sea.
Gruss,
Arjan
hi, Arjan,
Zitat von: Arjan am 03 August 2024, 10:12:28Several Schnellboot publications contain this, or a very similar, illustration of an S38 boat with this attractive camo scheme :
(https://i.imgur.com/ZM2oToOl.png)
That illustration contains the grave fault that no boat with Barbarossa camo ever had a bow gun or a mast.
The camouflage pattern shown is rather similar to that of 2nd S-flotilla, but still different als the original camouflage contained short stripes of different colours in different line positions (see pic of 2nd S-flotilla boats in Pensar bay and of
S 42 attached) while the illustration camouflage contains only long stripes in rather straight lines
greetings Urs
Thanks a lot for your response Urs. The new dodger parts of this Italeri kit look nice although they are a bit too thick. I hope the mines have the correct scale size and are not simply copies of the AFV Club ones which were far too small. The dodgers and mines are on the same sprue and it would be nice if these parts were sold separately to retrofit older S-Boot models. No doubt Italeri will revamp their old S-100 model at some point in the future with the inclusion of these new parts.
Gruss,
Arjan
Hi, Arjan,
I think it is difficult to find a genuine camouflage for a boat with bow gun. If You want to use something attractive in colours, you may consider a boat of the 1st flotilla in the Black Sea with diagonal red and white stripes on the bow (pictures exist),
greetings, Urs
I think that a Black Sea boat would indeed be a good idea. One thing I don't know is when exactly they started painting red and white recognition stripes onto the foredeck. The early S-Boote in the Black Sea with the rectangular sliding Brunnen covers still seem to lack the recognition stripes.
Later pics of boats with the stripes no longer seem to have the sliding Brunnen covers but they still show the early 2cm C/30 guns. In itself this wouldn't be a problem because the new Italeri kit still provides all the parts of the later C/38 bow gun including the round Brunnen cover. Stripes and yellow Andreas cross on the round cover in the first scan from Schnellboot in Action :
(https://i.imgur.com/mfA8IE1h.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IENOJ3Eh.jpg)
Gruss,
Arjan
Hi Arjan,
The Black sea boats did not have the strips when they first got to there. I think the stripes were painted on at the same time as the italian MAS boats got to the Black sea (the strips is an italian air recognition marking).
The photos shows S 102 with stripes. The front gun on the first Schlichting boats (S 102) never had the Lurssen sliding doors. The kit will fit fine with any of the other Black sea Lurssen boats in 1942/43. There is a good photo of S 52 in Die Geschichte 1. Schnellbootsflotille.
I would recomend to build S 42 (Barbarossa) without the gun or S 69 (Norway) with the gun if you want to have a camouflage. There are good side photos of both boats. I can give more details later.
/Alo
Many thanks Ola, this is extremely useful info. I would appreciate a scan of S 52 if that is possible. I would also appreciate pics of S 42 and S 69. For modellers like me who prefer to build historically accurate models having pics of both sides of a boat is very useful. I wonder why the Italeri researchers don't contact Urs and you before they release a new Schnellboot kit :-D .
edit: Apparently the Italian MAS boats had arrived at the Black Sea by the end of May 1942. This means they were already there before the German Schnellboote arrived :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarta_Flottiglia_MAS
Regards,
Arjan
Hi,
if You consider building S 69, there's an alternative, building 69 with CERBERUS recognition colours (forecastle and stern painted yellow). Background to that is that S 69 shot down one Swordfish of Esmonde's FAA Sq. 825.
greetings, Urs
Hallo,
hat jemand eine Idee, wie der auf dem letzten Photo angedeutete Spruch (?): "Nicht u... Ran u..." wohl vollständig gelautet hat?
Grüße OWZ
Hi OWZ, There are other photos showens something like: "Nicht weich werden, besser, ran und runter " /Alo
Danke top
OWZ
Hi Arjan,
Here is S 52 with red stripes and a 4 cm Bofors gun. I have not found anything about the Bofors gun in HMA or Sevastopol in summer 1943.
/AloS 52 1.gif
Hi,
S 42 in Barbarossa camouflage without front gun. Note that the Eagel Wappen was not painted on the boat in the begining.
/Alo
Hi,
More S 42 photos before Barbarossa. The boat is white without camouflage and front gun. Spring 1941.
/Alo
moin,
ja, mit Kommandant Wilhelm Meentzen (https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/s_boote/lebenslauf_kommandant.php?where_value=116)
Gruß, Urs
Hi Gentlemen,
Urs: Interesting, I didn't know that S 69 shot down a Swordfish plane.I wonder if anyone has made a model of a Schnellboot in Cerberus Tarnung ?
Ola: Thanks a lot for the interesting pics of S 52. It does surprise me to see the combination of air recognition stripes on the foredeck, a C38 Back Flak with the original sliding covers and a 4cm Bofors gun. At least to me it looks like the later C38 2cm gun with pantograph and not the earlier C30 one. Other boats (S 102, S 49 and S 51) had received their Bofors guns in February or March of 1943.
Last week I also had a closer look at the Italian MAS boats that were assigned to the Black Sea. To my surprise these Italian boats do not seem to have had the recognition stripes on the foredeck whereas these were usually present on MAS boats operating in the Mediterranean.
Gruss,
Arjan
hi,
Zitat von: alo41 am 13 August 2024, 22:47:44Here is S 52 with red stripes and a 4 cm Bofors gun. I have not found anything about the Bofors gun in HMA or Sevastopol in summer 1943.
S 52 (https://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/s_boote/lebenslauf_boot.php?where_value=45) was at Konstanza from 19.6. up to 15.8.1943. I presume that the Bofors gun was added in that timeframe.
Regrettably, there's no KTB for those weeks.
greetings Urs
Zitat von: Arjan am 14 August 2024, 10:40:38I didn't know that S 69 shot down a Swordfish plane.I wonder if anyone has made a model of a Schnellboot in Cerberus Tarnung ?
Thanks a lot for the interesting pics of S 52. it looks like the later C38 2cm gun with pantograph and not the earlier C30 one.
Italian boats do not seem to have had the recognition stripes on the foredeck whereas these were usually present on MAS boats operating in the Mediterranean.
Hi Arjan,
There is one Bundesarchive photo probebly showing S 69 after CERBERUS. It looks like they are painting over the yellow on the front deck with a darker color (note the paintcan). I also have a photo of S 69 with the swordfish kill marking (this marking can also be seen on the photo of the camouflaged S 69 in Norway, link, post #1896: https://forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=18105.1890)
The C30 gun was never used as front gun. There are at least two diffrent mounts for the C38 front gun (early/late).
I think the MAS boats had stripes at some times in the Black sea. I think I have seen a photo but I cant find it at the moment. I dont have any clear information on when they were applied or when they were removed. My best guess is that they were used from late 1942 to mid 1943. I am quite shure they were gone when Italy capitulated in Sep 1943 (I have never seen a Kalotte boat with stripes). The stripes were also used by Rumainia and Bulgaria in the Black sea.
/Alo
hi, Ola,
Danke für die tollen Photos :MG: top
Gruß, Urs
Nice bit of research Ola and also thanks a lot for the lovely photos ! You may be right that the C30 Flak was not used for the Brunnen but I'm not sure. These two guns were very similar in appearance (apart from their mount) and one would require very good detail pics to be sure. The C38 gun did have a much higher rate of fire than the earlier C30 gun though.
In their new kit Italeri provide the very same gun for both the bow and midships 2cm gun. So they seem to think that the C30 was also used for the bow gun.
I think you are right that the stripes were no longer used on the Mas boats in the Black Sea by the time of their surrender. At least, judging from this pic which no doubt you are also referring to.
(https://i.imgur.com/K8TiHIUl.jpg)
Some time ago I downloaded this nice pic of a MAS at Iwan Baba (TOP right), it doesn't seem to have the air recognition stripes. The two Schnellboote (TOP left) do not seem to have the stripes either :
(https://i.imgur.com/zMewyFil.jpg)
Talking about MAS boats, I also downloaded some pics of MAS boats in Kriegsmarine service. Location Porto Venere Italy, probably 24. Schnellboot Flottille.
(https://i.imgur.com/7nhkx5kl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a3dlkDLl.jpg)
Regards,
Arjan
Zitat von: alo41 am 23 August 2024, 10:58:53I think the MAS boats had stripes at some times in the Black sea. I think I have seen a photo but I cant find it at the moment.
Now I have found the MAS photo with stripes in the Black sea. It was in the magazine "Die Krigesmarine" No. 20, 1942. (~late Oct). The photo was then probebly been taken a few weeks before. The quality is not the best.
/Alo
Thanks Ola, I think this is probably the same photo and its quality is not much better :
(https://i.imgur.com/rPyCb1d.jpg)
Regards,
Arjan
Hi Arjan,
Yes, it is a PK (Propaganda Kompani?) picture that probebly were sent out as a press photo. Did you get any text with it?
The Schnellboote with your MAS Iwan Baba photo are S 42, S 45 and S 46 based on the split side window. It was only S 42 and S 45 that had them in the Black sea. They got there in May 1943 and the stripes were probebly not used then any more. The other photo shows the Bofors gun mount that should be there according to Urs's list.
There are more photos from Bobbau militaria showing these Schnellboots.
/Alo
Hi Ola, I downloaded the Mas PIC from a Belgian photo archive whose name I forgot. I don't remember if there was a text. These Bobbau pics also show armoured covers for the windows of the wheel house, first pic was taken at Iwan Baba. I wonder if these covers were a field conversion ?
(https://i.imgur.com/ieCEF12.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Wy50Vfh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/R9myP4w.jpg)
Some 4.S-Flottille boats also had these armoured covers :
(https://i.imgur.com/WtxuQrP.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/E7tzvSe.jpg)
Regards,
Arjan
Hi Arjan,
The added armour was a standard addition and it always looks the same. It was done to a number of boats in (~10-15?) in 1942. You will find most of them by searching the HMA Schnellboote page for "Panzerung".
The Black sea boat with Panzerung is S 42 based on the electrical anchor winche (only on ~S 41-S 44).
The 4 SFtl boat is KeK's S 63 with the unexplained "2" on the front.
/Alo
Thanks Ola top , adding these armored covers to a model would be a nice detail.
Regards,
Arjan