Scratchbuilt the Baltic Squadron
Alternate History:
We all know that German with the Versailles Treaty constraints built Panzerschiffs raider, the Deutschland class.
I explore the other possibility & choose to study Baltic Battleships
"The Baltic Squadron"
I suppose that these Baltic Battleships were laid down at the same date as the Deutschland , Admiral Scheer & Admiral Graf Spee
They have also the same standard displacement
This Squadron is made to engage the Battleships, specially, the Petropavlosk, the Courbet & the Bretagne class
These PB are drawing to receive T3x11" or T2x15" in the same barbette.
The rebuilt with 15" turrets is interesting to have more heavy shells able to penetrate Russian & French Battleships protection
The original build is made with T3x11"
The speed of the squadron is 24kts after rebuilt, ranges enough for Baltic & short North Atlantic operations.
1st chalenge:
Rebuilt VdT Panzerschiff for the Baltic Squadron
I am working (SpringSharp & drawings) on the VdT rebuilt, more compact, as a 11890Tstd Pocket Battleship with all protection (belt, turrets, barbettes, blockaus) 270mm, laid down in 1929
Rebuilt with 2T2x15" - 24Kts is very very hard.
I want also to protect the life boats from the blast of the wing T3x150
VdT actualy
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/505/1000864up3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
...
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Final VdT charac
laid down 05 feb 1929 - (in place of Deutschland)
162oax21.3x6.92
11890Tstd - 12210Tfl
2T3x11" + 2T3x4"9
Belt - turrets - blockaus - 270
Deck 100
Speed 24.81kts - 1000nm/14kts
Rebuilt 1937
164.2oax21.3 (bulges 24.4) x7.27
14040Tstd - 14875Tfl
2T2x15" + 2T3x4"9
Speed 24kts - 3000nm/14kts
Design in progress
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8789/vdt1931ut8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/4596/vdt1935fq4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
3 Pocket Battleships are in the Baltic Squadron
VdT - laid down 05 feb 1929
2T3x280 +2T3x150 – rebuilt in 1937 with 2T2x380
Study 20 - laid down in 25 june 1931 – 3T3x280 - rebuilt in 1938 with 3T2x380
Study 21 – laid down in 01 oct 1932 – 3T3x280
In sept 1939, The Baltic Squadron had
10x380 + 9x280 + 6x150
(http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/6528/1021938laiddownbi6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Baltic Squadron during the war,
1940 - The Baltic Squadron had actions during Norway campaign & help to the landings
April 9 1940 – Main action with Renown... (?)
1941- Help the Wehrmacht in the East March by coast bombardments.
Ready to engage Russian Baltic Fleet.
1942-43-44 – North of the Norway with the High Sea Fleet to destroy convoys
30 dec 1942- Barentz Sea Battle... (?)
26 dec 1943 – Main action with Duke of York... (?)
1944-45 - Help the Wehrmarcht in the retreat by coast bombardments
Jef :MG:
There are three possible scenarios for an engagement or artilleristic duel ...on which you did give a questionmark, each...
So whan we take those vessels, and substitute the real (SH & GU, e.g.),
- what would an engagement with Renown look like?
- is there another way of encounter with Glorious (range given, but not the speed -what if G could manage to launch an air strike)?, and
- Barents Sea, or North Cape - would it look the same?
As far as I understood (and we did recently discuss about these alternative scenarios in Paris), these baltic coastal defense force brings some very important alternatives :
1) they do not necessarily evoke an answer on french or british side, e.g. Dunkerque or at least Strasbourg seem to be quite unrealistic, not to speak of Richelieu class.
2) french yards could help Poland to make some serious attempt to counter these vessels...
3) a raider duty is -given the endurance- quite unrealistic for this force,
4) given the fact, that Germany is allowed to have six of them (first all with 283mm trple guns, to be upgunned to 380mm twins by the late 30ties might happen to two or three of them) and all of them are ready at the (historical) outbreak of hostilities ... what would be their field of duties?
We just recently had a discussion about an alternative building program for the KM, so if I might bring in the point:
- which cruiser program should be in parallel to those 12.000 ts vessels (instead of the K-class and the Hippers)?
- are there some merchant vessel buildup programs to be easily converted in Hilfskreuzer for raiding dutys?, and
- as I suppose, neither a SH or GU, nor BS or TP is laid down, also no GZ.
Your "studies" come out to be a quite interesting nucleus for an alternative building program, which does spare a lot of yard capacities to subs, merchant raiders, and (I'll gues the Seelöwe-guys might stiffen their ears) landing crafts.
Kurz auf deutsch:
Jef's Flotte hat's schon in sich ... keine "automatischen Antwortbauten" wie Dunkerque etc, und es werden jede Menge Kapazitäten für eine ganz andere Zusammensetzung der KM frei.
Da würden mich vor allem die Kreuzer, die dieses Bauprogramm begleiten könnten, interessieren...!
Ja, und ein paar der "historisch möglichen" Treffen mit gegnerischen Einheiten hat Jef ja schon aufgelistet :
nur wunderlich, dass unsere "what-if-Spezialisten" sich nicht schon längst darauf gestürzt haben?
Meiner Meinung nach sehr diskutierenswert!
Ciao,
Harold
:MG:
About the building program after 1933...
2 of the PocketBattleships, VdT & Std20 are rebuilt with T2x38cm
so, 5xT3x28cm are free.
I propose to reuse these turrets on 2 superPanzerschiff like "D" or "P" design but 30kts
(1 turret in reserve)
The job of these SuperPanzerschiff is to go with the new 30kts battleships H34-36-39...& help them to do the job
----------------------
The Baltic Squadron is not made to do action alone.
Always "K" cruiser & Torpedoboots are with BS
----------------------
Action with Glorious is not possible. 24 kts is not enough to catch the carrier.
An air strike from the Carrier is not sure, As I can remember, Glorious had some Gloster Gladiator on board & a few Swordish
Actions with Renown & DoY are interresting scenars
I think that these 3 Pocket Battleships (10x38cm+9x28cm) could sink Renown(6x38cm)
Waouuuuh Great Victory!!! :=D> :=D> :=D>
Not sure about DoY... :/DK: :/DK: :/DK:
Jef :OuuO:
:MG:
New VdT hull in progress, always with 3mm plywood glued with white woodglue.
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6215/1021939um1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1977/1021940ip5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7283/1021941uo7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5803/1021944yu4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
After sandpepering & varnish
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4152/1021948jl0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Lifeboats are going to be protected from the blast of the 5"9 turrets when they fire to the opposite side.
Main deck openings in progress
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/702/1021953nf4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/28/1021955mt1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
The 2 big holes are T3x5"9 axes.
Futur 2 openings can be see by the 2x4 small holes opposite to the axes
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4202/1021964uv2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Bulges in progress
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4206/1021959bw1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Bulges near the hull
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6393/1021962ko5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Bulges glued
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1357/1021965ko8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Next update in 2 weeks...
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Here is VdT hull with Luftwaffe camo paint style
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2787/1022028ir8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7779/1022029oz7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Transfer of the uperworks from the 1st built to this new hull can start...
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8901/1022031ql0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Accomodations for the lifeboats...
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7541/1022032bu8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/2744/1022034gh7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7130/1022036xk6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/8387/1022037xb3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3254/1022038wp3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/5694/1022041rw8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Testing the places
(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6269/1022044aq7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Debuilt the old hull
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6594/1022045la4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/3900/1022047ck5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2308/1022048ws6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
On the new hull, turrets & center parts in progress
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1529/1022049dr0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/6338/1022051qx6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Update for Von der Tann, Admiral ship of the Baltic Squadron
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7300/1022056uh2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7025/1022060lc9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9913/1022061xl5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6807/1022062br2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4741/1022063jm1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7186/1022064zu4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7386/1022054um3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
Outstanding, Jeff!
mfg
alex
:MG:
Von der Tann, Baltic Pocket Battleship is finish
:ML:
:/BE: :/BE: :/BE:
:MZ:
(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4256/1022136pd5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4146/1022138oy6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9428/1022140ue5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8933/1022142ro4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1259/1022147lg1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8272/1022158jt8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9095/1022162gx7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:=D>
:MG:
2nd part of the Baltic Squadron
Scratchbuilt my last & best designs made in summer 1980
Study 20 & her rebuilt, Study 21
- Deutschland class hull dimensions.
- Adjustements made with SpringSharp for Raider or Baltic Battleship.
--------------------
The Baltic Battleships Study20 & Study21 are laid down in Jef's Shipyards. :/BE:
They must be finished for the end of the year.
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2373/1022163yu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7614/1022164yd5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1171/1022165pc3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Hulls assembling in progress
(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1830/1022173jc1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/8076/1022172st5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Hulls are similar in dimensions to Deutschland Class
(http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7152/1022174ll3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MG:
After much sandpapering, Studies 20 & 21 receive varnish
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2561/1022197ox7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
You can see the places for the torpedo tubes. 4x4TT for each one.
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2778/1022201pg5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Studies 20 & 21 with the Graf Spee
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/1946/1022204sn9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MG:
:MZ:
This week, I didn't work for the hulls but for the upper parts.
towers, blockaus, 3m rangefinders...
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2260/1022205ve8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7517/1022206cg4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Testing on Study 20 hull.
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3164/1022208gk3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
Von der Tann is nice!
Hello Jefgte,
I always looks very impressed on your models. And when I look, I can see, that your are able to construct nearly every Idea of a Pocket battleship...
I have a question... What about the construction of the rooms and place in the ship. I think a big problem of everybody who is constructing those ship is that you have to put all the necessary things in a ship... How do You go a head with such things?
In this case you have taken about 30 m of a deck like the Deutschland class, and I wonder what about the space?
I hope, you understand my question, because of my bad English, but it is years ago, that I had to write or speak this language...
Ralf wrote:
"I have a question... What about the construction of the rooms and place in the ship. I think a big problem of everybody who is constructing those ship is that you have to put all the necessary things in a ship... How do You go a head with such things?
In this case you have taken about 30 m of a deck like the Deutschland class, and I wonder what about the space?"
Note for these studies, I add a 3rd turret on a Spee hull dimensions.
That take 50% more place for barbettes, amunitions... Yes but the diesels for 25/24 Kts are just 38800Shp, lighter than Spee.
These are also Baltic Battleships, so, all storages, food, fuel tanks are smaller than Spee raider.
Globaly, with SpringSharp & my personnal experience, I think that these Baltic Studies could be built in 1929 to 1932 with 10% "Deutsche Werke Shipyard" engineers adjustements.
SpringSharp wrote:
"Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate"
Adjustments could be made with the protection.
Actually: belt 120 - deck 80. That is bigger than Deutschland design.
Jef :MG:
:MG:
Work on the huls.
Belt is in place for Std20 (12290T-25kts), for her rebuilt, Std21, bulges are added, Std21 'll be 15000T-24kts.
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/9537/1022209zo7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7055/1022210eu3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7708/1022212bz0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/250/1022213dr8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Hulls paints are finish.
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/931/1022214dk3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/5348/1022215ek4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9937/1022216fk9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6364/1022217gb3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8392/1022218ng5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Towers in progress
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6851/0000015hp6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3097/0000016yu8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2504/0000017qd9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Towers, aft bridges & barbettes
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9214/1022223nv7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8797/1022225un1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6863/1022222ny4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
...Testing on the hulls
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9039/1022230zl1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2287/1022231zu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
...With the Graf Spee
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5480/1022232wm3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Turrets in progress
T3x28cm for Std20 & T2x38cm for Std21
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1751/1022236xe9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/344/1022237ol9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6329/1022239qd3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3103/1022241nn7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :OuuO:
:MG:
Saturday update
Tower & aft bridge are glued, turrets are finish & can rotate.
Std20 with 9x11" guns is repaint in light grey
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8184/1022244qn6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4472/1022247dj4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
With the enemies, Marat & Bretagne.
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9848/1022249xm5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1018/1022250pu6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7457/1022251vx6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
A Baltic Squadron with 3 Std 21, 24kts, belt 120 deck 80, 18x15" (shell 760kg) can now engage Marrat or Bretagne class, with serious chance to win... What about Renown april 9th 1940 ?...
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Funnels, cata & aircraft cases are in place
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6228/1022252bq9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7674/1022253nb1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7109/1022254tz2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4269/1022259zt7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Secondary turrets are in place
T2x8.8cm for Std20
T2x10.5cm for Std21
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2310/1022260gf3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3840/1022261vr4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5075/1022263oo9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3972/1022264eg7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Cranes , funnel caps & foremasts are in place
(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/3610/1022270jj6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2885/1022272kk8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3259/1022271hi6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2824/1022273br7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Saturday update:
Life boats are in place
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9885/1022274we2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/1342/1022275ju6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/331/1022276zc6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5788/1022277qn6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
New port holes, torpedo tubes, funnel mast & platform add
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5053/1022290wa4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8358/1022291wp9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7967/1022292fk2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Jef :MZ:
:MG:
Study 20 & 21, her rebuilt are finish
:/BE: :/BE: :/BE:
Study 20 - laid down 1931
Here is Study 20
12245Tstd - 15071Tfl
181.7x21.34x7.25
3T3x28cm
8T2x8.8cm
8x37
8x20
4x4 TTx53.3cm
40650shp - 26.6kts - 2500nm/14kts
belt 120-40
deck 70
turrets 170-70-20
bbte 125
blockaus 140
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/249/1022337rz7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6024/1022338bn2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9381/1022339ox0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5667/1022340wo9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Rebuilt in 1937-38 as Study 21
15200Tstd - 16787Tfl
181.7(188.54oa)x21.34-bulges 25.34x7.64
3T2x38cm
8T2x10.5cm
8x37
8x20
4x4 TTx53.3cm
40650shp - 24.67kts - 3500nm/14kts (new tanks in the bulges)
belt 120-40
deck 70
turrets 170-70-20
bbte 125
blockaus 140
The model represent Study 21 in 1943 with 6x4 flackvierling 20mm -
Luftwaffe style camo - ready to attack Russia convoies
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3637/1022346ed9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7768/1022347ba8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1826/1022364ym6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7681/1022366cj2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1897/1022367lj7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
With Von Der Tann.
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/7531/1022361oz7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
German build 3 Deutschland panzerschiff raider class.
Imagine an other possibility, no raiders but Baltic BBs:
They built 3x Study 20 with 28cm guns & they rebuilt them late in the 30' with 38cm guns.
Imagine now, original alternate histories
3 Study 21 engaged Renown in april 1940 & Duke of York in dec 1943...
Jef :OuuO: :OuuO: :OuuO: