Duikboot - Nummer 38428

[AndreasB]

Hi

This site says there was only one of the Sunderland crew killed when U-281 downed her?

http://sunderland1944.tripod.com/422_squadron/battle-of-atlantic.htm

All the best

Andreas

[ARANTALES]

Hallo Andreas,

On October 17, 1943, Paul Sargent and crew, on patrol well out in the Atlantic south of Iceland, encountered two U-boats side by side on the surface and made an attack which was unsuccessful. A second determined attack was made with little evasive action under heavy enemy fire. The depth charges dropped close to the target but the aircraft was severely damaged and three of the crew were killed by the U-boat guns. The aircraft was flown to a nearby convoy and ditched, in heavy seas, alongside H.M.S. Drury, one of the escorts. Unfortunately, Sargent was trapped in the wreckage and went down with his craft. The remainder of the crew were rescued and carried to St. Johns, Newfoundland

The site you mention also says (see our mark-up in bold of part of the websites' text)  that 4 crewmembers of the Sunderland were killed: 3 during the actual attack and a 4th member (being trapped in the aircraft) went down with the aircraft during/after the rescue efforts by HMS Drury.

DUIKBOOT did not take its information from the website about the 422 RCAC Sq, and we are trying to re-locate the source for our info. Will post it as soon as we find it.

For now, we can only say that as we read it DUIKBOOT is in line with the website you mentioned re. the number of Sunderland crewmembers lost in the attack between U281 and Sunderland S/422 RCAF.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Frans & Walter

[ARANTALES]

Hi Andreas,

As suspected, input for record 38428 in DUIKBOOT came from our Canadian friend Eric Zimmerman who contributed a lot of information regarding battles between Uboats and aircraft. Please find hereafter part of an email by Eric in which he writes more about the attack involving the Sunderland from 422Sq RCAF and in which he also lists the sources he used.

... about the action on October 17, 1943 there is absolutely no doubt about 4 members of the crew of Sunderland S/422 being lost.  I think you are correct in your post on the Historisches Marinearchiv that the confusion exists because the pilot Fl/Lt P.T. Sargent was lost when the plane ditched.  The other three members of the crew were killed directly in the action or died prior to the ditching.  They were the navigator F/O C.B. Steeves, Fl/Sgt L.T. Needham and the #15 Group Gunnery Officer, Fl/Lt P.A.S. Woodwark, the latter along for the ride, two other members of the crew were wounded.

I should also mention that the posts only mention U281 (von Davidson), there was a second boat involved here which was U448 (Dauter) and it was this boat which was actually the target of the Sunderland.  The aircraft was shot down by a combination of flak from U281 and U448.  The U448 also suffered considerable damage in the action and had one crewman Oberbootsmaat Fritz Döhler killed and two wounded.  This information is held correctly in DUIKBOOT and the name of the German crewman killed is held in the crew list information both on the Historisches Marinearchiv and Uboat.net websites.

Sources:
Operational Record Book (ORB) of #422 squadron – National Archives of Canada, Ottawa
Short Sunderland in WWII – Andrew Hendrie
The Short Sunderland – Chaz Bowyer
The Creation of a National Air Force – W.A.B. Douglas (Official History)

I should also mention there is a pretty good account of the action in U-boat versus Aircraft – Franks/Zimmerman

Finally as the spelling of various names is at odds in some of the sources I've consulted the Air Force Association of Canada website for the final word.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Eric, Frans & Walter

[AndreasB]

Thanks guys. My mistake, I should have read more carefully.

Carry on!

All the best

Andreas

[ARANTALES]

No problem.
Should you encounter other possible errors in the database, then please don't hesitate to let us know and we'll be happy to check our sources and correct the database if need be.
It keeps us on our toes and improves the quality of the data. 

Thank you for having used/consulted DUIKBOOT! 

Best regards,
Eric, Frans & Walter

[AndreasB]

Your database has become the go-to place for me when I am looking for a submarine mystery! It's a great job, many thanks for making it available and the hard work you put into it.

All the best

Andreas