A better Panzerschiff for La Plata

[Jefgte]

In 2005, on the Forum "Designing A Navy Ship", there was a competition
"A better Panzerschiff for La Plata"

http://p216.ezboard.com/fwarships1discussionboardsfrm14?page=1

Much guys designing very interresting projects with T3 or T4x24cm, higher speed and/or better protection, without 15cm guns...

In this compet, I have the idea to design a Panzerschiff with Kostenko look, 3T3x280 on the main deck (no superfiring).
I present this Panzerschiff in the compet and I decide to built later the 1/700 model WL.

(Finaly, there was no classement of the results...)

I like particulary this model with the compact bridges and a 1.5 boardside of the Graf Spee.


Here are some "Fotos" of the model


















Jef

[toppertino]

Very nice.
It looks a little bit like a waek armored Scharnhorst with diesels.

mfg

[torpedo mixer]

Jef - quite nice as a model ....

Seriously - christmas is just gone - but if I still have a last wish :  why not two turrets backwards ? A raider has to run and then have the right stuff would be in the usefull quadrant ! Yo - a ship with that weight distribution is a real pain in the neck - motors forward,exhaust right behind the main director, vibrations there, shafts underpassing the magazines ... Still !

regards, TM

[Jefgte]

Like I wrote, TM, this design take inspiration from Kostenko design

http://www.gwpda.org/naval/irn16bb.htm

That was also a challenge to install 3T3x28cm on the Spee hull...


I made also designs with A & X, Y turrets, Koenigsberg look
I hope to built these designs, Study 21 & 22 end 2007.


Happy new year to All 


Jef

[Der Hesse]

Hello Jef
your model looks like a post-deutschland-class or pre-scharnhorst-class.

I've read about considerations by German naval designers to enlarge the Deutschland-type.

Do you have any further information about these plans

[torpedo mixer]

Jef Jef Jef ............

please don't hide behind others ideas !

- A raider at that time (better for La Plata - your terms !) would need Diesel engines just to be there
- You need an enlarged ship to carry the threee turrets, so
-the existing diesel motors by MAN the way they were, you would have to switch from the two shaft design with 4 motors per shaft to either 6 motors per shaft (not nice for the stern design to incorporate the bigger screws)  or to a three shaft design with 4 motors per shaft : also not nice for these fine lines of the ship.
- i do not like the exhaust funnel directly behind the director
- You omitted the 15 cm guns to save weight. So any merchant you find you have either to sink by the heavy gus (waste of rounds) or torps (same way) or you have to set scuttling charges - takes time ! The heavy flak is too light to do this by itself...
- the three turrets would (IMHO) have made it to expensive for the depression shaken economy of germany to build it , also the allied powers would have never allowed this ship to be build ....

Ok, you can explain that this ship could have been build later with the Versaille treaty etc. bt this takes the fun and the difficulties away !

very warm regards, TM

[Jefgte]

Der Hesse,

I have not special info about Super Panzerschiff.
Like much Guys, I know C Panzerschiff & P Panzerschiff
Here are some Zenker designs:
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/viewtopic.php?t=963&mforum=warshipprojects
And here Aa & Ab designs for P Panzerschiff
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/warshipprojects/viewtopic.php?t=1157&mforum=warshipprojects


Jef 
----------
TM,
Like I wrote, that was a competition in 2005
The object was not a better raider but "A better Panzerschiff for la Plata"
The finality was to have better chance to win vs Ajax, Achiles & Exeter
As I can remember, the limit was the Spee displacement (sorry,I can't remenber others..)

------------------------------------

Here is the SpringSharp than I made for the competition:

3T3x11'' Kostenko style -panzerschiff, germany C Panzerschiff laid down 1931

Displacement:
   11 505 t light; 12 227 t standard; 14 153 t normal; 15 694 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   610.22 ft / 596.13 ft x 71.52 ft x 23.19 ft (normal load)
   186.00 m / 181.70 m x 21.80 m  x 7.07 m

Armament:
      9 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1931 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6 466 lbs / 2 933 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.54" / 90 mm   428.15 ft / 130.50 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   108.27 ft / 33.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     59.71 ft / 18.20 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   428.15 ft / 130.50 m   22.31 ft / 6.80 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.51" / 140 mm   2.76" / 70 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.24" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 52 000 shp / 38 792 Kw = 26.70 kts
   Range 12 500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 467 tons

Complement:
   648 - 843

Cost:
   £5.670 million / $22.679 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 808 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 3 095 tons, 21.9 %
      - Belts: 671 tons, 4.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 557 tons, 3.9 %
      - Armament: 627 tons, 4.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 180 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1 555 tons, 11.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 032 tons, 42.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 648 tons, 18.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 118 lbs / 9 125 Kg = 30.0 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.501
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 11.65 ft / 3.55 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.29 ft / 7.10 m
      - Forecastle (19 %):   20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.70 ft / 5.70 m
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   10.70 ft / 3.26 m (18.70 ft / 5.70 m before break)
      - Stern:      11.35 ft / 3.46 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.12 ft / 5.52 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 139.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 28 434 Square feet or 2 642 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 695 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.41
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily



Jef

[Jefgte]

TM wrote:

"please don't hide behind others ideas !"

My new signatur:

Panzerschiffes 1/700 WL to scratchbuilts:
-Panzerschiff Study 2
-Panzerschiff Study 6
-Coastal Battleship Study 8


Always ideas TM
New Panzerschiffes to come 



Jef

[torpedo mixer]

Dear Jef,

ideas : yea, with the competition at your belt you can use that input and start the forge ....
I hope I did not step on the wrong (your very esteemed one) foot and it that case I very humble apologize (no second thoughts - boy scout honor !)


Still, having that said, "A better panzership for La Plata" - your ship is a crazy response to the job as mentioned above. Forget the details like funnel, 15 cm etc., just economics will kill your design - the german would not have build a ship like your design and send it to La Plata. Ok, I do not know the exact criteria in that competion, at least the title is very misleading.

TM

P.S: : Edit : Jef : I'll stop this now. As a model your new ship is very nice and as an "idea becoming true and solid" (excuse my english) absolutely valid. I still do not believe that ship ship can be built or would have been built - but that's beside the point. Happy model making !!!!