The mystery of Enigma Rotor VIII (U-13?)

[Urs Heßling]

In September 1944, despite the fact that the 5th S-Flotilla had been ordered to destroy the wreck with depth charges, it was able to be brought in at night ...

31.08.1944 - 01.09.1944   
Minenunternehmung 5. S-Fltl (S 65, S 67, S 68, S 80, S 85, S 120) an der Untergangsstelle des deutschen Unterseeboots U 250, um dessen Bergung durch sowjetische Streitkräfte zu verhindern, auf dem Rückmarsch geht S 80 durch Minentreffer vor Viborg verloren
Anmerkung : Wasserbomben wurden nicht geworfen (siehe Anhang)

Gruß, Urs

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Urs,

Many thanks for the additional details. So the Schnellboote laid a minefield to hamper any attempt at recovery. How did they know the location of the wreck? It appears it was actually 2 miles to the south of the minefield. Was it from a visual report from a land observation post or was it from a B-Dienst intercept?

Best regards,

Platon

[Urs Heßling]

hello, Platon,

Was it from a visual report from a land observation post

As far as I understand the KTB, yes (the Finns had reported a marker buoy)

The supposed loss position mentioned in the KTB AO 3355 M(itte) o(ben) is approximately 60°30'N, 028°24'E
That differs from the position given in u-boat.net (60°27,9'N, 28°24,9'E) by more than 2 nm

Gruß, Urs

[Platon Alexiades]

Again many thanks Urs for clearing up these details.

Platon

[Strandurlauber]

Hello Platon,

Urs was faster again.

The assumption that the U250 sinking site was monitored from land is supported by an info in the "U-Boot-Archiv Wiki", in which the capture of the 6 survivors of U250 is reported: "Although at this moment Finnish coastal artillery from 10 km away fire was firing on the coast, they were picked up by MO 103".

In December 1947, Admiral W.F. Tribute, Admiral N.G. Kuznetsov, Admiral Lev Mikhailovich Galler, as well as Admiral Alafusov and Vice-Admiral Stepanov, were charged and punished with demotion or imprisonment, among other things, for passing on the documentation of the acoustic torpedoes of U 250 to the British. Galler died after four years in prison, the others survived. I do not believe that they personally submitted the information. They must have been subordinates, I don't know the exact details. I also consider this accusation to be Stalin's pretext to eliminate possible threats to his power.

Best regards,

Strandurlauber

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Strandurlauber,

Again many thanks for the additional details. I have a book by Kuznetzov about the Soviet Navy in WW2 and he made no mention of U 250. However it was published during the Cold War and at that time Soviet writers were not very generous with details about the Great Patriotic War!

Best regards,

Platon

[Strandurlauber]

Hello Platon,

I have the same impression, but it's been a long time since I read his books. He probably only learned English as an additional foreign language in the mid-1950s, after he was again demoted to vice admiral and dismissed (because he had protested against Khrushchev's cuts in the naval construction program). In addition to the books he wrote, he is said to have translated a lot of English-language specialist literature into Russian in the period up to his death, unfortunately the sources accessible to me do not specify exactly which ones.

But back to the original topic. Is there any information that the wreck of U13 (at a depth of 26-28 m similar to U250, with the diving technology of the time that was possible) was already searched by divers in 1940?

Your reference to U33 was also interesting. The "U-Boot-Archiv Wiki" states: "The British were able to recover three key rollers from the Enigma machine from the sunken submarine.". The wreck lies at 50-57 m depth, which is more difficult but not impossible for divers.

Best regards,

Strandurlauber

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Strandurlauber,

According to Captain Talbot, Director of A/S Warfare Division when interrogated by Sir William Jowitt (U-boat Investigation Committee) on 27 September 1940: "... we got divers into the boat and captured some very valuable information." During the investigation Enigma was never mentioned although it is clear that German signals had been deciphered. As far as I remember, there is no mention that the wreck of U-33 was penetrated but I will check my files to see if I can find anything on that.

The report of the sinking of U-33 makes no mention of the capture of the three rotors but this is certainly was kept secret. Apparently, ratings of U-33 were each given a rotor with the instruction to drop it in the water as far away of the sinking spot to make their recovery very difficult. Three ratings apparently forgot to do so.

Has anyone found any mention that these instructions were common in case a U-boat was operating in shallow waters?

Best regards,

Platon

[Strandurlauber]

Hello Platon,

(No reference to Rotor VIII on U33) "... rotors VI and VII — both of great importance to the cryptologists at Bletchley Park, as they are two of three special reels that had not been reconstructed by the Polish cryptologists. According to an official report by the Royal Navy, the roles were said to have been in the clothing of the captured chief engine mate Friedrich Kumpf. Years later, however, senior engineer Friedrich-Ernst Schilling stated that he too had parts of the Enigma in his pockets and that he managed to throw them out of the British lifeboat into the sea without the British seeing it." (Nigel Graddon: The Mystery of U-33: Hitler's Secret Envoy.)

I do not have the instructions of the Navy for such cases, if I find any information I will contact you.

Best regards,

Strandurlauber

[Platon Alexiades]

Many thanks Strandurlauber.

Platon

[crolick]

No error about VP 2623 - the source is The National Museum of the Royal Navy:
https://twitter.com/natmuseumrn/status/857183841529802752

Based on this I found few additional sources:
https://books.google.pl/books?id=QAXMDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT36&ots=UYL7vP0KdB&dq=%22vp%202623%22%201940%20enigma&hl=pl&pg=PT37#v=onepage&q=%22vp%202623%22%201940%20enigma&f=false
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma
https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php?topic=27733.0


Hope that helps!!
Andrzej

[t-geronimo]

Ich erlaube mir mal noch eine Anschlussfrage. In Darius' Verlinkung ist in einem Beitrag zu lesen:

VP 2623 captured by HMS Griffin on April 26th, 1940?!

Mir will es weder gelingen, eine 26. Vorpostenflottille zu lokalisieren, zu der dieses Boot seiner Bezeichnung nach gehört haben müsste, oder überhaupt ein Fahrzeug mit der Kennung VP 2623 in der deutschen Kriegsmarine. Vielleicht kann jemand helfen, diesen Widerspruch aufzulösen.

Das KTB Schiff 26 (Julius Pickenpack) sagt ganz klar (wenn auch teilweise handschriftlich), dass die Kennung vorher VP 2623 war, siehe Anhang. (0031-0033)


Im März 1941 war der deutschen Marineführung scheinbar das Schicksal von Schiff 26 und Schiff 37 immer noch nicht ganz klar, aber man hatte konkrete Vermutungen.
Demnach sei die Besatzung von Schiff 37 gefallen und die von Schiff 26 in Gefangenschaft, zumindest zum Teil in Kanada.

Man beauftragte einen dort gefangenen U-Boot-Offizier, Kptlt. Schilling (eventuell Friedrich-Ernst-Otto Schilling von U 33, also ausgerechnet dem Boot, das auch mit erbeuteten Enigma-Teilen in Verbindung stand...) mit Nachforschungen.
Diese ergaben (im November 1941!), dass Schiff 26 geentert wurde und zumindest nicht alles Geheimmaterial vernichtet werden konnte.
(0097-0099)

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Geronimo,

Thank you for pointing out that V-2623 was initially used in September 1939. I have the KTBs of Schiff 26 and Schiff 37 (on 35mm microfilm rolls T1022/3050 and 3052 from NARA).

I had email exchanges with a relative of a crew member of Schiff 37 back in 2011. Apparently, the families were never informed of their fate. Perhaps, the British tried to keep secret the fate of the two vessels. After the June 1940 Armistice, the French authorities were approached by the German Navy to find out if they knew anything about it but apparently they were not aware of it. They floated the idea that perhaps they were sunk during the raid of 8th DCT (Contre-torpilleurs Division) in the Skagerrak (23-24 April 1940) but this was false (only V-702 was damaged).

Best regards,

Platon