Sloop Ibis 10/11 1942

[Jan-Olof]

Hello,

Was this vessel sunk by German or Italian aircraft, the sources are ambiguous. According to Chronik des Seekrieges 1939-1945 we have the following contradictory statements:

8.– 11.11.1942
Französisch-Nordafrika
...
Die britische Sloop Ibis wird am 10.11. von einer ital. S.79 der 130. Gruppe mit Torpedo versenkt.
...

we also have

9.– 14.11.1942
Mittelmeer
...
 Die brit. Sloop Ibis wird am 10.11. nördlich Algier von einer dtsch Ju 88 versenkt.
...

I suspect that it was an Italian aircraft but I'm not entirely certain. The quotes above were taken from https://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/42-11.htm

Best regards,

Jan-Olof

[Darius]

Hi Jan-Olof,

wieder mal eine interessante Angelegenheit.

Habe mal meine Sekundärquellen befragt:

1) Battle Summary No. 38, Seite 116:
a) Appendix H

British and allied warships sunk during operation "Torch", 08.11.42-20.2.43:
10.11.1942
[...] Ibis; Sloop; A/C torpedo, 37°00'N, 3°00'E (10 miles N of Algiers)

b) Im Textteil ist es etwas verwirrender drin - Datum & Schiff falsch:

Seite 42:

Meanwhile Force O had been heavily attacked off Algiers by torpedo bombers at 1700 on the 11th, when the Argus was bombed by 13 Ju 88´s and straddled by all bombs except one which slightly damaged the extreme edge of her flight deck. Twenty-four minutes later the Isis, forming part of the destroyer screen of the Argus and Scylla, was hit by an aircraft torepdo 10 miles north of Algiers and sank in a few minutes.

c) Im Index des Werkes wird der o.g. angebliche Verlust der Isis auf Seite 32 referenziert...

2. British warship losses of the Modern Era, 1920-1982, David Hepper, 2022, S. 219:

10 November 1942
IBIS, sloop
Haverton 1940; 1,300 tons; 283ft x 37.6ft; 6 x 4in, 4 x 2pdr, 2 x 20mm
Commander Henry Maxwell Darell-Brown DSC

Part of the force covering the landings in North Africa, she supported the landings at Algiers 'C' beachhead
then joined the escort to the aircraft carrier Argus. At 16.40 the group was 12 miles off Cape Caxine, when
a formation of twelve Ju 88 aircraft was sighted on the port beam which commenced a bombing attack,
concentrating on the Argus. At 17.15 a second raid was sighted closing, and as before the Ibis engaged with
main armament. This time two of the attackers turned to concentrate on the sloop, dropping low evidently to
release torpedoes. The attack was pressed home and the first aircraft passed close over the bows after dropping a
torpedo, only to crash into the sea, after being engaged by all the close-range weapons. The torpedo passed
clear, but another aircraft was seen approaching from the port quarter, which dropped a torpedo. The wheel
was put over to 'comb the track' but at 17.21 it hit the port side, aft of number 1 boiler room. Clouds of steam
escaped to blanket the after part of the ship and she heeled over to take a list of 15 degrees to starboard. The
ship did not recover and continued to slowly roll over and floats and nets were released as she was ordered to
be abandoned. By 17.23 she was hanging at an angle of 45 degrees, and 5 minutes later she rolled over to
starboard to float bottom up, a huge rent in her port side showing, from the upper deck to the keel, before
sinking. One hundred and six men were killed.
[TNA: ADM.267/115]

3. The Admiralty Regrets - British Warship Loasses of the 20th Century, Paul Kemp, 1999, Seite 198:

10 November 1942
Ibis, Black Swan class sloop, [...]
Survivors: 102

Notes:
At 1002 hrs on 10 October Ibis was attacked by a number of Italian aircraft. She defended herself well, shooting down three of her assailants, but one aircraft dropped a torpedo that struck the littel sloop amidships. She capsized and sank almost immediately. The survivors hat to wait till after dark before being rescued by the cruiser Scylla.

Ich habe nach diesen Angaben am ehesten ital. Flieger im Verdacht - schaue aber mal weiter.


 

Darius

[Darius]

...
Admiralty War Diary, 11.11.1942

[...] 4. SCYLLA hat IBIS survivors on board.
(C.S.10, 1833Z/11 to F.O. Inshore Sqdn., (R) N.C.X.F., S.O. Force H)[...]

Situation report 1630/11th.
[...] (7) Force O attacked 10 miles north of port dusk 10th with bombs and aerial torpedoes. ARGUS 2 bomb hits, still servicable, some fighters destroyed. IBIS hit by bomb and aerial torpedo, capsized and sunk. Survivors 5 officers 98 ratings. C.O. died of wounds. Destroyer shot down one aircraft.[...]

Situation report No. 7.
[...] (9) IBIS hit by aircraft torpedo at 1002/10 ten miles north of Algers capsized immediately and sank. 6 officers and 96 ratings saved but captain hat since died.
(N.C.X.F., 1731Z/11 to Admty., (R) C.in C. Med., V.A. Malta, V.A. Gibraltar, B.A.D., A.F.H.Q.)

Preleminary reports show that between 8 Nov and 15 Nov inclusive Naval A.A. fire accounted for 23 enemy aircraft, 10 probable and 18 damaged. IBIS shot down 3 before sinking.

Nach dem letzten Eintrag habe ich den Verdacht, dass IBIS die drei Flugzeuge nicht im letzten Gefecht abgeschossen hat, sondern während der ganzen Operation bis zum Untergang.

CINCMED, Report of operations for the invasion of North Africa:
10.11.1942:

[...] Force O. was operating 20 miles north of Algiers and escorts were fuelling. SHEFFIELD and C.S.10 rejoined and parted company again to carry out operation PERPETUAL at 1530. About 1705, eleven J.U. 88 made a dive bombing attack on the Force, ARGUS being hit. At 1727, IBIS was torpedoed by a T/B and capsized about 1730.[...]

IBIS, part of the destroyer screen of SCYLLA and ARGUS was hit by an aircraft torpedo at 1724 while ten miles north of Algiers. She turned over a few minutes after being hit. SCYLLA picked up five officers and 102 ratings and at 2030 CLARE picked up another three ratings. [...]
ARGUS was attacked by 13 J.U. 88at 1700 and straddled or near missed by all the bombs except one which hit the extreme edge of the flight deck causing slight damage.[...]

B.R. 1886 (C.B. 4273(52)) - H.M. Ships Damaged or Sunk by Enemy Action 3 Sep 1939 - 2 Sep 1945, S. 341:
  siehe Anlage mit Details zu dem Torpedotreffer.

Bleibt nur die Frage, ob es deutsche oder italienische Flugzeuge waren.




Darius

[Darius]

Lt. DIARIO STORICO DEL COMANDO SUPREMO, 10.11.1942, waren ital. Torpedoflugzeuge vor Algier im Einsatz und meldeten Erfolge. Dt. Flieger haben einen Flugzeugträger angegriffen.

Mache jetzt mal aber wieder Pause bei dem Thema.
Auswertung Dt. Marine-Akten & Luftwaffen-KTBs gehe ich momentan nicht an.



Darius

[TW]

Rohwer selbst hat seine Ansicht von der Ausgabe 1992 zu 2006 geändert und schwenkte von einem italienischen Erfolg zum Erfolg einer JU 88 um.

Die präzise Angabe einer "ital. S.79 der 130. Gruppe" kommt nicht von Rohwer, sondern aus der Reihe der Nachbearbeiter. Leider habe ich - der Gepflogenheit eines Verzichts von Anmerkungen und genauen Quellenangaben folgend - keinen Nachweis mehr über die Quelle unseres Eintrags.

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

einigermaßen zuverlässige Quelle : IBIS

Gruß, Urs