Weserübung - Kattegat und nachschub.

[JohnT]

Hallo

I have always been fascinated of Weserübung and tried to learn more and now I got down to a level of detail where the  I have a problem to find further printed sources regarding the naval war in Kattegat.
Of cource must there be more written on this but I have not found any explicit titles dealing only with the supply shippments to Norway.
From the german side there ought to be unit histories but most often they are told from the personal view,
Interesting and usefull but does not always easily fits into the grand picture.
But it does give you a understanding of how these people percieved their situation.
So they are often good to have but you need a lot of mosaic tiles to get the grand picture.

Here I hope you can give me some hints on what to look for.


First and foremost I'm interersted in the 1. and  2.Seetransportstaffeln as they where delayed by two days and there is a number of swedish reports of German merchants on Swedish territorial waters during the opertions.
I find it slightly funny as Germans blamed British subs to operate from Swedish waters and the Britts accused Germans to travel in Swedish waters
(Note -  I try to focus on actual events and to keep national pride at bay)

Secondly I am digging into the British submarine operations in Kattegatt/Skagerack and thus I like to know as much as possible about German
Escort operations in the area.

And thirdly I tries to find out what Sweden did knew and when, the general situation has been chewed many times on Swedish side but there is little published on the operational level.
In Swedish Air force archive I have found a detailed report of "Fehrnaufklärer" (that's Ju 86's in Swedish parlance 1940 ) operations during April and May 1940.


What I have read so far that have a bearing on the naval side:
Weserübung" : der deutsche Angriff auf Dänemark und Norwegen im April 1940 / von Hans-Martin Ottmer
Die Deutsche Besetzung von Dänemark und Norwegen 1940 / W.Hubatsch 1960
Rhower

Als das eis brach /  Lochner
Fischdampfer und walfangboote im Krieg  17. UJ  /Kohl

Submarines: volume I - operations in home, northern and Atlantic waters  - ADM 234/380 ("Service use only" copied from PRO Kew UK)
Naval Operations of the Campaign in Norway /White Hall History Publishing 2000
FLEDGLING EAGLES/ Christopher Shores
9.April / Zetterling 2000
The Swedish white paper on Swedens actions before and under Weserübung, containign an Agent report listing German vessels arriving in Oslo April - June 1940

And have ordered but not got it yet DER ZWEITE WELTKRIEG IM KARTENBILD BAND 2 WESERÜBUNG , DIE BESETZUNG DÄNEMARKS UND DIE EROBERUNG NORWEGENS 9.4.-10.6.1940  Thies, K.J
Don't think there will be much on the naval side in that one but I might be wrong.


I have also checked
Ruge, Friedrich: Im Küstenvorfeld. Minensuchen, Geleit, U-Bootsjagd, Vorpostendienst.
and
Desarzens, Olivier : Nachrichtendienstliche Aspekte der ,,Weserübung" 1940

and thanks to this forum I know that the "only" information I can get from Witterhöft is regarding incomming Blockadebrecher
Witthöft, H. J (Dinklage, L.): Die deutsche Handelsflotte 1939-1945. Unterbesonderer Berücksichtigung der Blockadebrecher, 2 Bände


the only outstanding book i know of are
Zieb, Paul W.:
Logistische Probleme der Kriegsmarine. -
Anyone read it and know if the chapter on Weserübung is concentrated on KM's catastophic logistic or if it contains anything on the supplies to Oslo too ?


IF there is not much printed sources to find, could anyone help me with if there is a chance to get into the primary sources? (MA-BA)
My personal experience with archives is that theres always a way in but you have to know who and how to ask your questions and to know the organisation that created the archive to know where the facts are stored at a usefull level of detail.
I'm looking for a situation map with units for a specific time if such where made.
Or a detailed lagesbericht where I can read positions of  the different units or vessels

Hubatsch  s118 :  Der aulauf der Seetransport oblag dem Führer der Minensuchboote Ost und seinem Stab; den Geleitschutz stellte der Befehlshaber der Sicherungsstreitkräfte der Ostsee.
Do that mean I can find  it in the archives of FdM O's stab  Somewhere?

When looking at BA-MA  onlline I found
RM 109     Seetransport-Dienststellen   1939-1945 
Informationen zum Bestand
Diese Dienststellen, den Kriegsmarinedienstellen unterstellt, wurden während des 2. Weltkrieges eingerichtet um Hilfsschiffe bereitzustellen und mit Personal zu besetzen sowie Truppen- und Nachschubtransporte durchzuführen. Eingerichtet wurden die Seetransport-Chefs Norwegen, Italien, Ägäis und Schwarzes Meer, jede mit einer Anzahl von nachgeordneten Seetransportstellen.
sounds liek they more prduced the unist but "sowie Truppen- und Nachschubtransporte durchzuführen" looks like they did take a operational responsibility at times


While Desarzens lists RM I /36  Transportshiffe, nachschub as a source.

the online catalog end at RM 35 I  "Marinegruppenkommando Ost/Nord  "
So you can't (?) get further information online.

thats as far as I got

any help would be appriceiated

Cheers
/John T.

[Peter K.]

... only some additions to your outstanding collection of sources concerning "Weserübung":

Paul Zieb, Logistik-Probleme der Marine:
... no relevant information, only 2 or 3 pages about "Weserübung"

Klaus-Jürgen Thies, Weserübung (im Kartenbild)
... great source, but expensive!
... with detailed daily information about the assumed positions of every steamer
... of course written from the German point of view
... data from the KTB SKL

[Peter K.]

... perhaps you are also interested in:

Lagebetrachtungen zur Überführung von Truppen und Geräten nach Drontheim
Truppentransporte nach Stavanger
Schnelltransporte nach Bergen
Nachteile der Transportabsichten Gruppe West (Bergen)
NARA PG 47505, roll 2723

Notizen über Transporte der Norwegen-Unternehmung
NARA PG 47504, roll 2782

Das Norwegen-Unternehmen - Die Nachschubtransporte
NARA PG 47468-469, roll 2985

OKW, Kpt.z.S. Krancke, Stand der Schiffe und Schiffsbewegungen 9.-30.03.1940
NARA PG 47346, roll 2777

OKW, Kpt.z.S. Krancke, Gültige Transportübersichten 11.3.-05.4.1940
NARA PG 47347, roll 2777

[JohnT]

... only some additions to your outstanding collection of sources concerning "Weserübung":

Paul Zieb, Logistik-Probleme der Marine:
... no relevant information, only 2 or 3 pages about "Weserübung"

Klaus-Jürgen Thies, Weserübung (im Kartenbild)
... great source, but expensive!
... with detailed daily information about the assumed positions of every steamer
... of course written from the German point of view
... data from the KTB SKL

Thanks a lot Peter,
then I don't have to look up Zieb.

I did order Thies a week ago and I am sooo happy I'm wrong in my assumtion it was army only.
I have wanted it for many years but always found something else more worthwile to spend my money on
(like bread, or Neptun  shipmodels) now I had abstained (almost) from shipmodels for enough months to get it.

Cheers
/John T.

[JohnT]

... perhaps you are also interested in:

Lagebetrachtungen zur Überführung von Truppen und Geräten nach Drontheim
Truppentransporte nach Stavanger
Schnelltransporte nach Bergen
Nachteile der Transportabsichten Gruppe West (Bergen)
NARA PG 47505, roll 2723

Notizen über Transporte der Norwegen-Unternehmung
NARA PG 47504, roll 2782

Das Norwegen-Unternehmen - Die Nachschubtransporte
NARA PG 47468-469, roll 2985

OKW, Kpt.z.S. Krancke, Stand der Schiffe und Schiffsbewegungen 9.-30.03.1940
NARA PG 47346, roll 2777

OKW, Kpt.z.S. Krancke, Gültige Transportübersichten 11.3.-05.4.1940
NARA PG 47347, roll 2777

All seems relevant, do you have copies of these documents?
(And is there anything you looking for in Swedish archives..)
I haven't found an index for KM archives- I found references to
"Records from the German Naval Archives microfilmed by the United States Navy (Office of
Naval Intelligence--ONI) at the Admiralty, London."
But that's all
Can I find it online ?

The first one is something I do have had under observation,
"und Geräten nach Drontheim". This is the kind of Issue I have noted as "Some day I will.." but not yet started to search for sources.
I know that part of the supplies for Drontheim did came through Swedish rail.
During the fighting in Norway April - June 40, Sweden agreed to send "Humanitarian aid" both to Narvik and Trondheim.
No personell where sent to Trondheim but a lot more railcarts did get there than to Narvik.
And I suspects that part of the things sent where usefull in setting up the naval supply base in Trondheim as most of the equipment in a naval yard are not different from civilian tools anyhow.

Cheers
/John T.

[Peter K.]

Hello JOHN!

All seems relevant, do you have copies of these documents?

Unfortunately, I don´t!
But you can order the microfilms at http://www.archives.gov/.
There is no online-findbook available, but you can order the great findbooks by Timothy P. Mulligan via the link mentioned above.

Many thanks for your kindly offer to research in Swedish archives!
By now I have no special requests, but I am sure, there will be some in the future ... 

[t-geronimo]

Hello John!

Are you working in the swedish archive? If so, do you know Mr. Per Clason?
I recently had contact with him. He helped me much with some research for "Exercise Rhine", the Bismarck-sortie!

[JohnT]

Hello John!

Are you working in the swedish archive? If so, do you know Mr. Per Clason?
I recently had contact with him. He helped me much with some research for "Exercise Rhine", the Bismarck-sortie!

Work and Work  .. so far noone ever payed me for it  Pure amature.

But I did meet Per last Tuesday when I got the Air force reports for April 1940, I was probably only a index page away from your request (Important air recce 1940 instead of 41).
We don't meet that regulary nowadays but he throws books at me at regular intervals.
As secretary of "Sjöhistoriska samfundet" he sends out Forum Navale (the magazine) and books that are financed from the society, it's something like one book each quarter.

Cheers
/John T.