Battle off the Giglio island.

[cam]

Hi,
Colleagues,
I ask you to help find out what was the composition of the German convoy, which was fired by American PT-211, -202 and -203 rockets at about midnight on February 19, 1944 near the Giglio island and what losses it suffered. R.Bukley in the book "At Close Quarters PT Boats in the United States Navy" writes that the 15th PT squadron later attacked another convoy with rockets. When did this happen and with what result?

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[TW]

 
Gruß, Thomas

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

möglicherweise geht es um [Zitat aus der Chronik]
1.– 29.2.1944
Westliches Mittelmeer
...
Minenunternehmen der 10. T-Flottille (KKpt. v. Gartzen) »Maulwurf« (1./2.2.), »Schlange« (3./4.2.), »Kobra« (16./17.2.), »Delphin« (25./26.2.). Gefechte mit feindlichen MTBs am 14./15.2. und 18./19.2.
[Zitat Ende]

Gruß, Urs

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und 18./19.2. [/b]
Gruß, Urs

R.Bukley  writes that this attack was the first. Here is the American description of the attack:
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/PT-6.html

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

Nun ja

Zitat (15./16.8.1943)
"Subsequent interview with an Italian E-boat flotilla commander after the capitulation of Italy revealed that in the engagement the German E-boats suffered heavy casualties totalling 14. These included the German flotilla commander who was killed."

Demgegenüber
15.08.1943 - 16.08.1943   
Vorstoß (S 153, S 154) in die Straße von Messina, Gefecht mit USN-Schnellbooten PT 205, PT 215 und PT 216 (1 Toter), Rückkehr nach Salerno
(Flottillenchef Trummer und beide Kommandanten blieben unverletzt)

Gruß, Urs

[cam]

Hi,
Americans can write whatever they want. What interests me most is the composition of the convoy that they attacked off the island of Giglio with missiles and its damage.
cam

[TW]

I ask you to help find out what was the composition of the German convoy, which was fired by American PT-211, -202 and -203 rockets at about midnight on February 19, 1944 near the Giglio island and what losses it suffered.

R.Bulkley in the book "At Close Quarters PT Boats in the United States Navy" writes that the 15th PT squadron later attacked another convoy with rockets. When did this happen and with what result?

I cannot find the exact text, where Bulkley mentions the second attack (after the attack of 18./19.Febr.1944).

In https://www.deepfriedhappymice.com/C_Cmd_Scenarios.pdf there is also no mention of a third attack of US PT-boats in February:

1944
Feb 17. 3 US Pts (202, 203, 211) vs 2 GE TB

Feb 18 3 US Pts (202, 203, 211) w/ rockets vs 6 GE S-boats + 4 F-Lighters

Mar-Apr. Operation Gun was an attempt to sink the well built and armed F-lighter craft. It was a combined US-Br operation in which 2 x 4.7" guns and 2 x 40mm guns were placed on LCG landing craft and crewed by British Marines. The force was divided into several formations including a control (HQ) section, an Attack group consisting of the LCGs with escorts, and one or two scouting formations.

Mar 27. Scout 2 US PT (212, 214) + Contol 2 US PT (208, 218) + Attack 3 LCG (14, 19, 20), 3 BR MGB (659, 660, 662) , 1 BR MTB (634) vs 2 GE Dds + 6 GE F-lighters

Apr 24. Scout 3 US PT (212, 213, 202) + Contol 2 US PT (209, 218) + Attack 3 LCG (14, 19, 20), 4 BR MGB (657, 655, 660, 662) , 2 BR MTB (633, 640) , 2 US Pts (211, 216) vs 5 GE F-lighters + Armed Tug; Later, 3 GE F-Lighters reinforced by 1 GE S-boat + 2 GE DDs.

May 18. Vada Rocks. 3 US PTs (204, 304, 213) vs 2 GE Flak Lighters + Shore Bty

and so on ...
Best regards, Thomas

[TW]

Hi,
Americans can write whatever they want. What interests me most is the composition of the convoy that they attacked off the island of Giglio with missiles and its damage.
cam

Auch zum [1.] Angriff vom 18./19.Febr.1944 bin ich in deutschen Quellen nirgends auf eine Bestätigung gestoßen.  Allerdings stand mir das KTB der 1. Transportflottille nicht zur Verfügung. Kugler erwähnt keinen passenden Angriff.

[cam]

Thank you Thomas. 
This means that this battle will remain a mystery. At least German sources do not report casualties in the area that day.

[t-geronimo]

KTB 1. Transportflottille meldet bis auf einen Bombenangriff auf den Hafen von Livorno keine besonderen Vorkommnisse.

[cam]

Not even a report of the attack? Whom then did the Americans fire rockets at?

[t-geronimo]

Not even a report of the attack? Whom then did the Americans fire rockets at?

What attack? There was no attack on ships of 1. Transportflottille by other ships.

[TW]

Im KTB der Seekriegsleitung gibt es Bericht über einen Angriff auf TA-Boote westl. Civitavecchia. Siehe Anlage.

Den Begriff "Steil-Feuerwaffe" lese ich zum ersten Mal. Damit könnten Raketen gemeint sein, die zunächst steil zum Himmel hinauf und dann erst  von oben herab auf das Ziel zu schießen. So habe ich mir einen Raketenangriff im Jahr 1944 nicht vorgestellt. Ich habe immer angenommen, die Raketen steuern direkt auf ihr Ziel zu.

Kanonenkugeln und Granaten beschreiben ja auch einen Bogen durch die Luft; sonst würden sie die riesigen Entfernungen zum Ziel ja nicht überwinden. Allerdings haben Granaten auch keinen eigenen Antrieb.

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https://www.facebook.com/USNHistory/photos/motor-torpedo-boat-pt-211/10153835619378344/

This is one of the participants in the PT-211 battle in February 1944 with rockets launchers in the bow. They could shoot from such installations only with mounted fire.

[chattius]

G'moie

Es gab wohl Beides. Steilfeuer mit Raketen auf hinter Hindernissen verankerte Schiffe und direktes Feuer.
https://www.pt-boat.com/rocket/rocket.html




Michael