Finnish Navy in World War II von Jari Aromaa

[jja60]

Dear Jari - welcome to the forum

I have one question regarding war diaries of Finnish ships from September 1939 - are you planing to translate them? (I'm especially interested in ILMARINEN or VAINAMOINEN and gunboats since there is a chance that Polish ORZEŁ encountered Finnish ships during her escape from Tallinn).


All the best,
Andrzej

Hello, Andrzej

I have translated the Coastal Fleet diary SPK 2847 on my website. The September month is here. On the dates before Orzel arrived in Tallinn there is nothing about unknown submarine in the western part of Gulf of Finland, only around the outer islands that are east from Tallinn. On 18.9. morning there is general information delivered that Polish submarine has departed from Tallinn and on 19.9 at 12.30 Coastal Fleet received a phone message from Naval Forces Headquarters about areas where Polish submarines may move and orders were given how to deal with them (no details in the diary). In the afternoon 19.9. unknown submarine is seen in Kokskär-Eestiluoto line, first moving west and then east. I have not located Kokskär but Eestiluoto is 60^o07'N, 25^o13'E. At 16.25 Utö fort sees unknown submarine in bearing 168^o. Could this have been Orzel? Did it travel on surface?

Ilmarinen has no digitized war diary before 30.11.1939. Väinämöinen has diaries SPK 2488-2490 for September. Based on these diaries the coastal defence ships were in anchor in Turku or Ahvenanmaa area the days Orzel was in Gulf of Finland or Tallinn. Again, there are no notices on dates before Orzel arrives in Tallinn. In SPK 2489 there is same general message that a Polish submarine has departed from Tallinn at 03.03 hours. There is also sighting of an unknown submarine 14.25 NE Helsinki light moving west (maybe the same as first one above).

Usually only gunboats or VMV patrol boats did patrols outside the archipelago. In the gunboats diaries Hämeenmaa has no notices about submarines in September, Karjala was operating too far in the east, Turunmaa has nothing about submarines, and Uusimaa has nothing before Orzel's arrival in Tallin and only the general signal of its departure 18.9. I will try to get more details about the movements of gunboats 18.9. and after. For example Uusimaa was in Turku 18-19.9. for resupply.

Regards,
Jari

[crolick]

Dear Jari,

thank you for your reply
I'm asking about this because in Polish sources it is claimed that after the escape submarine was laying on the bottom (I don't know where) for the whole day and during the sunset around 20.00/18 IX ORZEŁ surfaced at the entry to the Gulf of Finland where 2 or 3 ships were seen in distance of around 300 m. They were recognized as ILMARINEN class + escort ships.

Please keep in mind that all the data for ORZEŁ due to lack of documents might be not correct (so 19 IX is also possible as well that ORZEŁ was travelling on surface though this is rather less probable).
It is also possible that the submarine sighted by Finnish Navy was a Soviet sub (maybe there were some in the vicinity?).

I presume that Kokskär is Estonian isle of Keri.


All the best,
Andrzej

[jja60]

Hello, Andrzej

You are right about the Koksär, it is Keri.

In the Diary of Väinämöinen SPK 2489 (14.9-21.9.1939) it is stated that the ship moved in the morning 18.9. from a pier (position not given) to Kuuvannokka (south end of Ruissalo island) then to Vähä-Teivi and anchored at 19.20 east from Mailuoto. I have not found this place in maps, but there are Maisaari and Vähä-Maisaari east from Airisto 60^o19'N, 21^o52'E. In Finnish "luoto" is a small island (="saari"). In SPK 2489 at 20.55. two ships and 22.45 one ship were seen in bearing 340^o going south. There is a lane west from the Maisaari islands. The names of these three ships were not found out, maybe due to darkness.
For 19.9. the Diary SPK 2489 notes that:
07.55 a small passenger ship was seen in south
08.10 Gunboat Turunmaa arrived to anchor place
08.25 3 VMV boats, tug Katajaluoto with coal and water barges arrived
08.40 Sweeper Rautu and 2 A-boats arrived
09.00 Sweeper Vilppula with 3 A-boats arrived
12.45 sweeper Rautu tied up alongside Ilmarinen.
As there is no notes about departure or arrival of Ilmarinen I assume that it has also been anchored in Mailuoto/Maisaari  the night 18/19.9. The A-boats conducted sweeping exercises during the day 19.9. Rautu moved to anchor and Vilppula tied up alongside Ilmarinen 16.30-16.45. Gunboat Uusimaa arrived 21.05.
Gunboat Turunmaa departed from the anchor place 20.9. at 00.44. Gunboat Uusimaa departed 11.25 to patrol in Hanko direction. An A-boat tied up alongside Ilmarinen at 19.15. The same goes on for 21.9, no mentions about Väinämöinen, vessels tying up alongside and departing from Ilmarinen. As there are no notes about departure or arrival of the coast defence ships I assume that they remained at anchor 18-21.9 deep inside the archipelago.

In my opinion Orzel did not saw a Finnish coast defence ship. The Finnish gunboat patrols were made by a single vessel. If several gunboats were out at same time, they were in different places. If Orzel saw 2-3 warships they might have been Swedish ones.

Best Regards,
Jari

[Albatros]

Gunboat Turunmaa departed from the anchor place 20.9. at 00.44.

Hier mal ein Bild der Turunmaa

Finnisches Kanonenboot Turunmaa.
http://www.bellabs.ru/51/Morozov/Morozov_MTA_I-134-3.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_gunboat_Turunmaa



Manfred

[chattius]

G'moie
Wenn man auf sa-kuva.fi nach Turunmaa sucht findet man 22 Bilder der Turunmaa.
Gruss Chattius