Who captured the MZ-703, -709 and -749.

[cam]

Hi,

Colleagues,

Read such information

14 Sept. 1943 CONFIDENTIAL

2. Own Situation Mediterranean

The 11th Motor Minesweeuer Flotilla seized the fleet tender
CIGNIO, one tug, and three drifters off Sestri Levante.

https://archive.org/stream/wardiarygermann491943germ/wardiarygermann491943germ_djvu.txt

By 14 September the entire coast of Liguria was controlled by German troops. Where did the Italian ships come from that needed to be captured? Please help me find out what really happened. Maybe this event happened earlier, but the report on it came only on the 14th?

cam

[Darius]

Hi cam,

maybe we can start a new topic with your new question?




Darius

[cam]

Yes. It will even be better.

[Darius]

Ist ein Admin zufällig da?

ed: hat sich erledigt:
https://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/index.php/topic,32714.msg370714




Darius

[TW]

Wenn ich die Zusammenhänge richtig verstehe, dann wurden  MZ-703, -709 and -749 um 16.45 Uhr von Räumbooten der 11. R-Flottille aufgebracht und nach Livorno umgeleitet. Lediglich MZ 754 wurde von Minenschiff "Pommern" angehalten und nach Livorno geschickt. (Jedenfalls habe ich es heute so in der Gesamtchronik vermerkt). --
Für MZ 754 ist leider ungeklärt, woher es kam und ob es am 9. September in einem MZ-Verband oder als Einzelfahrer unterwegs war.

P.S. Es gibt für MZ 703 (II) wieder einen [überflüssigen und verwirrenden] Duplikat-Datensatz. Verwirrend deswegen, weil fälschlich als Kennung_1 die deutsche F-Nummer und als Kennung_2 die italienische MZ-Nummer eingetragen wurde. Kann ich das Duplikat löschen, oder gibt es dagegen Einspruch ?

[TW]

Bei Kontrolle meiner Eintragungen fiel mir auf, dass in der LFZ-Chronik ein Widerspruch aufgetreten ist. Ich gebe mal die entscheidenden Eintragungen wieder:

- 08./09.09.1943 MZ 777 zusammen mit MZ 795 von Neapel nach Viareggio ausgelaufen, vor Civitavecchia von deutschen R-Booten abgefangen [6]
- 09.09.1943 MZ 777 vor Civitavecchia durch die dt. R-Boote R 189, R 199, R 201, R 212, R 215 erbeutet [9] - In Civitavecchia deutsche Beute [3] [4]
- 09.09.1943 MZ 795 vor Civitavecchia durch die dt. R-Boote R 189, R 199, R 201, R 212, R 215 erbeutet [6]
- 09.09.1943 MZ 724 vor Civitavecchia durch die dt. R-Boote R 189, R 199, R 201, R 212, R 215 erbeutet [6]

*******************************
- 09.09.1943 MZ 703(II), MZ 709, MZ 742, MZ 780 und MZ 781 laufen aus der Bocche di Magra nach Süden aus.
- 09.09.1943 16.45 Uhr MZ 703(II) und MZ 709 von Räumbooten der 11. R-Flottille aufgebracht und nach Livorno umgeleitet [9]
- 09.09.1943 16.45 Uhr MZ 749 wird von Räumbooten der 11. R-Flottille aufgebracht, nach Livorno umgeleitet und erbeutet [7]

*********************************
- 09.09.1943 MZ 754 vor Livorno durch deutsche Fahrzeuge, u.a. Minenleger Pommern, erbeutet [3]

Wie ihr seht, wurden an 2 ganz unterschiedlichen Standorten jeweils 3 italienische MZ aufgebracht. Aber das KTB der 11. R-Flottille (R 189, R 199, R 201, R 212, R 215) vom 9.9.1943 räumt nur einmal die Erbeutung von 3 Fährprähmen ein, und zwar um 16.35 Uhr. Die Fährprähme wurden von ihnen nach Livorno geleitet. (KTB-Auszug in Antwort #13) Civitavecchia liegt viel weiter südlich, etwa auf Höhe Rom, meines Erachtens nicht im Op.-Gebiet der genannten Räumboote.

Frage: Was ist Eure Meinung und wie sollen wir (soll ich) mit den Datensätzen nun verfahren ?
Frage: Gehen die anderen drei MZ auf das Konto des Minenschiffs Pommern (vgl. Antwort #4 von TD). Hat Jemand das KTB Minenschiff Pommern vom 9.9.1943 und kann dort Einblick nehmen ?

Viele Grüße, Thomas

[t-geronimo]

Ich habe leider kein KTB der beiden Minenschiffe, daher keine Beweise.
Nur ein schwaches Indiz, s.u. (aus KTB Marinekommando Italien).

[de domenico]

The reason for the renumbering of a number of MZs, including 703,  was to avoid confusion with the pennant numbers of the Forza Navale Speciale (FNS), created on 25 Oct. 1940 with a Corfu landing in mind.
In May, 1942 with the possibility  of the Operation C3, Malta, in mind, the FNS was enlarged, and pennant numbers in the 800 to 949 range attributed.
The 601 to 700 range was already given over to the MLs, or Moto Lance, the 701 to 765 range to the first batch of Moto Zattere or MZ, the 801 to 824 range were 24 former Venice motoscafi lagunari (MF), 831 to 832 were two small passenger motor-ships also from Venice, 833 to 835 were DURAZZO-Class minelayers, 841 to 844 the four SESIA-Class water tankers/minelayers/infantry landing ships, 851 to 852 were two Messina ferries, 861 to 863 small passenger motor-ships and steamers, 901 to 949 were schooners.  The full FNS list is on AIDMEN Bollettino no. 28, 2014.

So to avoid the overlapping of the numbers of the second  batch of MZs ordered in July 1942  (MZ 761/ii to 800) and of the third batch (MZ 801 to 820) with those of  the other FNS units, nine MZs of the first batch were re-numbered using digits already used for units lost  during the first months of deployment. MZ 703/ii ex MZ 760/i was among them. The objective was not to overcome the number 800.

[cam]

Italians write:

Nei giorni seguenti all'8 settembre, molte navi italiane vengono catturate dai tedeschi, dirottate in mare, o direttamente nei porti toscani di cui subito dopo l'annuncio dell'armistizio, avevano rapidamente preso il controllo. A Livorno furono catturati l'incrociatore leggero BARI, le corvette CAMOSCIO, ARTEMIDE e ANTILOPE, le motozzattere MZ-703, MZ-709, MZ-749, MZ-783, le vedette  VAS-238, VAS-239, VAS-305,  e, ancora in costruzione, i cacciatorpedinieri BARONE, BORSINI, CARRISTA e SQUADRISTA e le corvette CERVO, DAINO, RENNA e STAMBECCO ; a Portoferraio: le torpediniere danneggiate  IMPAVIDO, ARDITO e i MAS-551, MAS-554, i VAS-208, VAS-209, VAS-214, VAS-217, VAS-219, VAS-220, VAS-228, VAS-232, MZ-785 ed il rimorchiatore N5; a Bocca di Magra: i MAS-531, MAS-557, MS-34, MS-51, VAS-207, VAS-225; a Viareggio: i MAS-549, MS-12, MZ-706, MZ-744, MZ-751, MZ-754, MZ-799 e il dragamine RD13; a Portovenere: il VAS 236 e il traghetto della Tirrenia ICHNUSA ; a Piombino infine furono catturati e incorporati nellla marina tedesca i rimorchiatori CAPRAIA (ex N 29), poi autoaffondato in porto, ed il PORTO PALO (ex Palinuro) e il POLIFEMO (ex Einigkeit) poi autoaffondati a Genova nell'aprile del 1945.
http://piombino-storia.blogspot.com/2009/

cam

[TW]

Die Angaben auf http://piombino-storia.blogspot.com/2009/ sind, gemessen an Erkenntnissen in unserer Datenbank, leider nicht zuverlässig. Deswegen nutze ich sie lieber nicht.

Sie geben auch keine Antwort auf die Frage, welche 3 MZ von der 11. R-Flottille erbeutet wurden,
und welche 3 MZ von anderen (welchen ?) dt. Seestreitkräften.
Gruß, Thomas

[de domenico]

MZ 749, 703 and 709 were the faster of eight boats which had sailed together bound for Porto Ferraio,  five from Bocche di Magra (MZ 703/ii, 709, 742, 780, 781) and three more from Marina di Carrara (MZ 749, 778 and 800). The other five were slower (MZ 781, 742, 780, 778, 800). The three faster boats were intercepted first by the two minelayers BRANDENBURG and POMMERN and then near Gorgona island by the R-Boote which had just engaged the three VAS, and led into Livorno, where 703/ii managed to sabotage herself. The other five, slower boats reached Capraia island and met quite different fates.

From "I  muli del mare"  by Tullio Marcon, Mendola, Augusta, 1982.

[TW]

Thanks a lot, Francesco. Unfortunately it is very difficult for me to read (translate) the Italian books, otherwise I wood have bought the book of Tullio Marcon.

Can you tell me, what has happened to MZ 777, MZ 795, and MZ 724 near Civitavecchia? What ships captured these "muli del mare" on 09.09.1943 ?

Best regards, Thomas

[de domenico]

MZ 777 and 795 were en route northbound from Castellammare di Stabia/Vico Equense  for Viareggio, with MZ 704 following behind. They had sailed in the afternoon of 8.9, and were off Civitavecchia at noon on 9.9. Their radios being out of order, they didn't know of the Armistice, so they obeyed wìthout discussion an order given by a German R-Boot to follow it into harbour, where German soldiers and tanks were waiting for them with weapons drawn, so the only hurried act of sabotage possible was to ditch the breeching block of the 76-mm. gun. The crews were not held prisoner and dispersed ashore.

MZ 704, coming behind, was fired upon and damaged by German shore batteries, aircraft and four small naval  units and forced to beach in the evening of 9.9. at Tor Vajanica, between Anzio and Ostia. 


MZ 724 was already moored in the Civitavecchia harbour in the evening of 8.9. with engine defects so she was captured there.

Sources: "I muli del mare" and "Navi Militari Perdute", USMM, Roma, 1975.

[TW]

MZ 724 was already moored in the Civitavecchia harbour in the evening of 8.9. with engine defects so she was captured there.

Danke, Francesco,
Diese Information muss in die Chronik von MZ 724 eingefügt werden.
Aufbringung durch R-Boote ist offenbar eine Fehlinformation (FSW)

[TW]

MZ 777 and 795 were en route northbound from Castellammare di Stabia/Vico Equense  for Viareggio, with MZ 704 following behind. They had sailed in the afternoon of 8.9, and were off Civitavecchia at noon on 9.9. Their radios being out of order, they didn't know of the Armistice, so they obeyed wìthout discussion an order given by a German R-Boot to follow it into harbour, where German soldiers and tanks were waiting for them with weapons drawn, so the only hurried act of sabotage possible was to ditch the breeching block of the 76-mm. gun. The crews were not held prisoner and dispersed ashore.

Die R-Boote der 11. Flottille, die vor Livorno drei MZ aufbrachten, können nicht zur gleichen Zeit vor Civitavecchia operiert haben. Im KTB der 11. R-Flottille ist dieser, von Francesco geschilderte, Vorgang nicht verzeichnet. MZ 777 und -795 wurden nach Civitavecchia begleitet. Frage: Um welche R-Boote handelte es sich ? Kommen Boote der 6. R-Flottille in Frage ? Oder war derselbe MFP-Verband am Werk wie bei MZ 704 ?