Leichte Kreuzer der de Grasse-Klasse

[Huszar]

Hallo Leute,

Seit einiger Zeit beschäftigt mich die Frage, was es mit dieser Klasse auf sich hatte.

Wie sahen sie aus, welche Bewaffnung hätten sie gehabt, usw. Finde leider nur die Zeichnung, wie de Grasse als dt. Flugzeugträger ausgesehen hätte.

http://perso.orange.fr/bertrand.daubigny/MnHmPg.htm

Hier leider kein Zugriff auf die Klasse...

Die andere Frage wäre, weshalb Deutschland sie nicht weitergebaut hatte.
Zumindest de Grasse sollte recht weit fortgeschritten sein, und bei dem eklatantem Mangel an Kreuzern wären sie wohl recht wichtig gewesen.

mfg

alex

[Spee]

Servus Huszar,

mal die Daten:

8.128t Standardverdrängung
176,3m x 18m x 5,54m
2 Satz Rateau/Chantiers-de-Bretagne-Getriebeturbinen, 4 Indret-Hochdruckkessel, 2 Wellen
35kn, 110.000PS
9 x 15,2cm L/50  M 1930 (3x3)
6 x 9cm L/50 M 1926 (3x2)
8 x 1,32cm MG
6 Torpedorohre 55,1cm (2x3)
2 Katapulte 3-4 Bordflugzeuge
580 Offiziere und Mannschaften
(nach Whitley: Kreuzer im 2.Weltkrieg)

"De Grasse" wurde erst am 28.8.1939 auf Stapel gelegt (nach anderen Angaben November 1938), entsprechend gering war der Baufortschritt. Da man die Pläne hätte umarbeiten müssen und die allgemeine Lage 1940/41 eher von einem baldigen Ende des Krieges ausging, war die "De Grasse" nicht wichtig und die in Lorient vorhandenen Kapazitäten für die U-Boote besser verwendet. Ab 1942 brauchte man das Schiff als leichten Kreuzer nicht mehr, da sämtlich schweren Einheiten abgezogen waren. Eine Fertigstellung der "De Grasse" wäre nutzlos und Verschwendung gewesen. Die beiden anderen Einheiten der Klasse ("Chateaurenault" und "Guichen") wurden nicht mehr auf Stapel gelegt.

[harold]

De Grasse ist der Recherche-Schwerpunkt von Bruno (bgire)!
Schreib ihm doch ne PN... 

Ciao,
Harold

[bgire]

Hallo !

Here are DeGrasse data from her "specification book" (i.e. specifications to the builder, writen in 1938) :
I've put in bold the data which differs from your source.
Note : specifications are an offical source. As they were issued in 1938, when the ship was laid down, I suspect they're the REAL figures.

Displacement :
- Light : 8,948.320t
- Trial : 10,189.600t
- full load : 11,430.880t

Dimensions :
Length bet.pp : 180.4m at trial displacement
Width : 18.6m
Draught : 5.54m mean (trial), 6.024m mean (full load)
Machinery : 2 Rateau turbines (110,000SHP - 121,000SHP max)
Two shafts (270rpm)
Speed : 34kts @ 110,000SHP, 35kts @ 127,460SHP

Armament :
9x152mm of the same model as Richelieu but with angle limited to 70degrees (3x3)
6x100mm/cal45 M1933 modified 1936 (armour increased)
8x37mmAA (4x2)
4x13.2MG (2x2)
6x 550TT (2x3)
2 catapults, 2x3,300kg planes, no hangar

38 officers, 653 crew

De Grasse was an enlarged "La Galissonnière", with more protection, heavier secondary armament and a new forward tower with a look mixed from BB Dunkerque and CA Algérie. Transom stern with plane recovering floating "carpet" like the other cruisers.

Here's a front view redrawn by me from her original plans :


Hope this helps
Bruno

[Huszar]

Thanks a lot!

The other question I have is, which % were ready from the ships, when Germany invaded?
Were all laid down, or just De Grasse (and when)?
As I see, there are differing datas, when dG was laid down...

alex

[wer]

@Huszar:

Wenn dich noch Bilder interessieren, dann googel mal unter Bilder nach "Kreuzer de Grasse", da sind zwar wenige Ergebnisse, teilweise auch recht minimalistisch, aber für so ne grobe Vorstellung doch ganz passabel.

Gruß

Christian

[bgire]

As far as I recall :
When the German seized the Lorient Shipyard, De Grasse (only) had been laid down and was being assembled on slip, but not complete enough to be floated. In my opinion, maybe 20-30%.
Her uncompleted hull was left there during the war. I've been told her hull was used by the Résistance to hide small weapons and/or documents.
After the war, her design was deeply modified : this was easier due to the very early stage of her completion.
For example : she was fitted with a round stern instead of the original transom one. At the time of her building (1938), experience with the plane floating recovery "carpet" was being deleted from the preceding La Galissonnière cruisers, so the transom stern wasn't necessary any more.

[bgire]

Hallo !
I've updated the bow view and completed the stern view of De Grasse, as (to be) built originally. Have a look below.

How did I (100% digital) ?
- I put the digital pictures of the original plan on an under-layer of my CAD software (I took the pictures when I re-discovered those plans in the French military archives).
- I did the redrawing directly above on another layer
- I did the same for four ships section (forward) and six (aft). I put the sections to the same scale and position and deleted the hidden parts.

On the stern view, note the main mast is slightly off axis to starboard, a common practice on French ships.

Fore view :



Stern view :



More to follow next month as I redraw those plans
Bruno

[harold]

Marvellous work, Bruno!

As I understood, you did several intersections at different frames in longitudinal views... did you do the same with the lateral plan and midships section?
Am very eager to see your final version, and to compare it with DeGrasse as built!

Thank you for showing us,
Harold

[bgire]

 
Yes Harold : I applied the same treatment to the original plans. I think I'll sort out many more details by matching longitudinal and transverse plans. This helps when some major plans are missing as with this incomplete and faded set.
You did the same with la Gascogne 

Bruno

[Peter K.]

Great work. BRUNO! ... my congratulations!

[kalli]

Lieber Bruno,

das ist ein schöner Beitrag. Danke

[bgire]

Hallo !

Here are more views of my reconstruction of the drawings for De Grasse, as designed. Some of you ( Peter, Harold, ...) had a first look in Vienna... maybe they could give me some advice and/ or suggestions.

External profile showing the fore tower (SCOOP : this is the first time since 1940 you can see this, as the original plan has been lost)
Some details remain to be corrected, but the drawing is 99% complete and matching the original plans available to me.



External view of aft battery :



Internal view of the same area :

[harold]

Bruno,
as I know your really ecxellent work in wider extense, I want to congratulate you for this - but please don't hesitate to advertise your forcoming publication in warships/7/2007!
Guess -also after our Korneuburg meeting- the folks are eager to see more of your redesigns.

(Bruno bringt seine zeichnerischen Rekonstruktionen im Oktoberheft von warships international an die Öffentlichkeit.
Was wir hier zu sehen bekommen, sind wirklich die ersten veröffentlichten Pläne seit 69 Jahren...)

So thank you, merci bien, for showing us your drawings!

Harold

[Ritchie]

Here are DeGrasse data from her "specification book" (i.e. specifications to the builder, writen in 1938) :
I've put in bold the data which differs from your source.
Note : specifications are an offical source. As they were issued in 1938, when the ship was laid down, I suspect they're the REAL figures.

Dear Bruno,

do you have such data for the earlyer french cruisers (Primauget, Suffren) also?

Regards

Ritchie