Renown vs Baltic Squadron - april 9th 1940

[Jefgte]

 

Possible scenar with Renown April 9th 1940


The Baltic Squadron is discover by Renown -5h05am

The cruiser, in front of the German Fleet line receives first the 15" splashes-5h16-distance 16500m
The cruiser retreat near the middle PBB.

The PBB are not disappointed because they had much tested battle tactics since many years; a battle with a slower BB, a faster BB...
The tactical is to disperse the 3PBB, every PBB operate individually.

Renown making 23kts in the storm, open fire on VdT, in the middle of the German line
All PBB return fire. Speed 16 to 20 kts

Std21 (3T3x28cm), first of the German line go ahead
VdT - Admiral Lutjens (2T2x38cm), second in the line make a complete circle & follow Std21.
Std20 (3T2x38cm) third in the line make a turn over & operate on opposite side.

Hits
On Std21, tower rangefinder out - 5h21
On Renown near the mast
On Renown deck boat
On Std20, aft 38cm turret out
On Renown bridge, main rangefinder out
On Renown hull
On Std20, deck boat & diesels, serious fire, speed slow down to 16kts
On Renown funnel
On Renown bow
On Renown A turret, turret out
On Std21 bow, serious damage 
On Renown hull
On Renown turbine, speed slow down to 20kts
On Std21 aft deck
On Renown deck boat, serious fire
On Renown bridge
On Renown aft turret, turret out - distance about 10000 to 12000m
Torpedoes lauch made by PBB. No result in the storm
On Renown, hit, on deck
On Renown, fore part of hull
With 2 turrets, 1 turbine out, great fire on deck boat, Admiral Withworth order retreat.
On Renown, 2 more hits during retreat


German PBB ceased fire when Renown disappears south at 21kts- 6h41

-----------------------------

The tactical is to disperse the enemy fire, so, 1 or 2 PBB are quiet to fire.
When the enemy is well hammered & his speed slow down, 2 torpedoes launch are made by the PBB.

--------------------

Harold, I have changed the scenar because, I think that in the storm, the torpedoes could n't maintain the right direction.

With better sea condition, PBB could make accurate torpedoes lauch & ...certainly sink Renown



Jef 

[Leutnant Werner]

Sounds like la Plata in the North Sea. The storms have the mission to slow especially RENOWN down. There are some questions occuring nevertheless:

1.: Aren´t the German ships slowed down considerably as well?
2.: How about a reduced fighting capability of Anton turrets on the German ships?
3.: What´s each others optical range and how are secondary weapons are about to come into action?

Cheers
Lt

[harold]

...and, in addition, also would be great if we could give distances, plotted courses and timeframes as we had done, some years ago, with the LaPlata-thread.
Huszar is our man for the gambling rules ... so why not to start some parallel to this old thread?

And yes, my cruiser design question is still open...

Interesting alternatives!

Ciao,
Harold

[t-geronimo]

Jefgte, how did you get the number of hits and the damage they made?

[Jefgte]

Leutenan Werner wrote:
"
1.: Aren´t the German ships slowed down considerably as well?
2.: How about a reduced fighting capability of Anton turrets on the German ships?
3.: What´s each others optical range and how are secondary weapons are about to come into action?
"

1 : I think that the PBB speed is from 16 to 20kts.
2 : Fighting A turret is rythmes by the movement of the ship (that is the single possibility).
3 : All my PBB use 2x10.5 rangefinder.
when the main on the tower is destroyed the aft, secondary begin the main.
No problem, the fire is made by boardside. Just the 150mm fire in action - I think that the minimal distance was 10000m
British DD & German TB fire together.

T Geronimo wrote:
"how did you get the number of hits and the damage they made?"

The first hits are the same as the Battle with S & G (Aft Gneisenau turret was knockout, so aft Std 20 turret too).... the others, by experience - hit by hit are personnal estimation.

-------------------

Without storm, in normal sea , 2 torpedoes lauchs (2x16) made 2x2 hits. Renown went to the seabed.
Vdt receive 1 hit in the bulge by destroyer.


Jef 

[Jefgte]

 

I rewrite a possible scenario with Renown April 9th 1940...

Forces in presence:
British – Battle cruiser Renown, with 9 Destroyers - Admiral Withworth
German – The complet Baltic Squadron; 3 Pocket Baltic Battleships – 1 light cruiser – 6 TorpedoBoots – Admiral Marshall on Von der Tann

5.05am - The Baltic Squadron steaming at 16kts course 140° is discovering by Renown.
The cruiser, 1 mile ahead in front of the German Fleet line receives first the 15" splashes. The distance is 16500m.
The cruiser turns towards to the Admiral battleship in the middle of the German line.
The cruiser reported the presence of a battleship and destroyers steering 200°. Renown making 23kts in the storm, open fire on Std21, at the left of the German line at 5.08. Without possibility to escape, Admiral Marshal orders the deployment of the pocket battleships line for the tactical "1 battleship engagement by the left". At 5.10, Baltic Squadron begins the deployment. At 5.14, all pocket battleships now in tactical position return the fire. Speed during deployment was16kts to 20kts.
The German battleships take their positions, Std21 (3T3x28cm), right of the German line go ahead at 18kts. Von der Tann - (2T2x38cm), in the middle of the line make a complete circle & follow Std21. Std20 (3T2x38cm) left in the line operate on opposite side with the light cruiser.
During the movement, Renown scored one hit on Std 21 at 5.16 near the t op of the tower. The main range finder & some optical material are damaged. At the same moment, a 11" shell from Std 21 hit Renown near the mast making light damage. Renown, now steering 60° is hit again by a 15" shell at 5.18, this shell, probably from Std20 hit the lifeboats near the second funnel & a fire begin in the middle of the battle cruiser. Distance is now about 12000m. The British Battle cruiser identifies correctly the pocket battleships and switches her fire to Std20, the most powerful german pocket battleship. Shortly later, at 5h23, the range is correctly obtained & the battlecruiser makes a hit on the aft 38cm turret, making the turret out of action. Std 20 altered course to port before turning together to 110° at 5.26.
Due to the poor visibility by snow, fire cease for a few minutes. However, at 5.29, Renown is hit on the bridge, probably by a 11" shell fire at 12850m by Std21, this shell destroyed the t op range finder. Study 20 with her 15" guns is now masked by the snow, so Renown switch her fire to Std21, At 5.30, This pocket battleship making 16kts, is now relatively clear in west at about 12700m. Before obtain the right range, Renown is hit again by a 11" shell near the bow.
The Renown's first salvo was about 300yds short, the 2nd straddled, at 5.32, the 3rd hit the pocket battleship in the middle, on deck boat. The shell passed through the 80mm armour deck & explodes in the aft starboard diesel room. The diesel is partially destroyed and a serious fire occurred, speed slow down to 14kts.The ship turn over and make screen smoke. Shortly later, Von der Tann reopens fire on Renown and obtains a 15" hit on Renown's funnel at 5h35. Apparently, some 5"9 shells from the cruiser or Von der Tann hits also Renown during this period. The 5"9 turrets of Von der Tann are use to help the 15" guns in range. At 5.38, the German admiral pocket battleship score a 15" hit at 11840m on A turret, putting the turret out of action.
The British Cruiser altered course & continue to hammer Std 21. At 5.40, Std21 is hit in the bow at about 12000m. The shell made serious damage in the bow. Some compartments were flooded. Her draught forward increases by 2'.
At 5.43, Std20 reopen fire on Renown at 10750m & makes a hit on the forecastle.
Von der Tann hit also Renown in a turbine room at 5.44. The turbine was damaged & stopped. Speed of the British BC decrease to 20kts.
Distance between the German pocket battleships & Renown is now about 11000m.
British destroyers & German torpedo boats fire some times during this period; a torpedo boat was slightly damage by a hit on the funnel.
Std21 is hit again at 5.46 on the aft deck, some officers's cabins are destroyed.
The visibility is now better. All pocket battleships are firing on the British battlecruiser. The 3 German ships outgunned the Renown & obtain 2 hits at 5.48 one hit a life boat & explode in the hangar, serious fire begin in the middle, one other 11" hit the 2nd port 5"25 turret, destroying the turret.
At 5.52, on Renown, aft turret is damaged by an other hit probably a 15"which put the turret out of action.
Std 20 Captain think that Renown with 2 turrets out of action & a reduce speed is now in defeat condition. He orders to hoist the flag"ready for 1 torpedo launch". Von Der Tann answers at 5.54.
2 minutes later, at 5.56, manoeuvring to be in good position, all pocket battleships launch 16 torpedoes to the Renown at 11000m & then, turn over at 20kts to escape the British Destroyers reactions
Renown firing with B turret only altered course to port before turning together to 220° at 5.58.
During the torpedo launch, Renown receives 1 more hit, a 15" on the forecastle. At 6.02 a 11" hit the belt. The amour was slightly driven and the hull plating bulged in, but no very serious damage was done, though the wings immediately below the amour were flooded for a length of c60ft.
3 British destroyers were in good position & launch torpedoes to Von der Tann at 5.59. Without effect due to the bad sea & the turn over of the pocket battleship. Von der Tann searchlights and bridge were damaged by shells from destroyers during this action. 
6.05 - With 2 turrets & 1 turbine damaged, important fire in hangar & deck boat, about 500tons water in the hull Admiral Withworth order retreat.
On Renown, 2 more hits were obtain during retreat, a 15" near the aft rangefinder and an 11" near the stern without serious effect.
Torpedoes launch by pocket battleships made no result in the storm.

German Baltic Squadron ceased completely fire when Renown disappears south at 23kts-6.16


Jef 

[Huszar]

Hallo Jefgate!

This is a very interesting Scenario, we spoke about it very often on our Italy-tour. Unfortunately, I saw it one day before departure, so I could not write and make statements earlier.

I would like to play it through with the improved la-Plata-rules (with some hlep from Harold, of course), what I need to this is following:
- drawings of your projects (side and above), best with the inner arrangements (mashines, magazines, etc)
- the thickness and position of the armour
- if it is possible, a drawing from the begining of the battle, with positions of the ships and the ranges.

you can send the data to Harold or me per e-mail.


best regards

alex

[Jefgte]

 

During my holydays, I made 3 drawings of the battle.
I made them just by memory without any drawing model.
I think that they are not too bad...
Here they are:

...at 5h23, the range is correctly obtained & the battlecruiser makes a hit on the aft 38cm turret, making the turret out of action.Std 20 altered course to port...






...at 5.32, the 3rd hit the pocket battleship in the middle, on deck boat. The shell passed through the 80mm armour deck & explodes in the aft starboard diesel room. The diesel is partially destroyed and a serious fire occurred, speed slow down to 14kts...






...3 British destroyers were in good position & launch torpedoes to Von der Tann at 5.59. Without effect due to the bad sea & the turn over of the pocket battleship. Von der Tann searchlights and bridge were damaged by shells from destroyers during this action. 





Jef 

[Peter K.]

... great drawings, JEFGTE ! 

[Jefgte]

I rewrite the possible scenario with Renown April 9th 1940...

Forces in presence:
British – Battle cruiser Renown, with 9 Destroyers - Admiral Withworth
German – The complet Baltic Squadron; 3 Pocket Baltic Battleships – 1 light cruiser – 6 TorpedoBoots – Admiral Marshall on Von der Tann

5.05am - The Baltic Squadron steaming at 16kts course 140° is discovering by Renown.
The cruiser, 1 mile ahead in front of the German Fleet line receives first the 15" splashes. The distance is 16500m.
The cruiser turns towards to the Admiral battleship in the middle of the German line.
The cruiser reported the presence of a battleship and destroyers steering 200°. Renown making 23kts in the storm, open fire on Std20, at the left of the German line at 5.08. Without possibility to escape, Admiral Marshal orders the deployment of the pocket battleships line for the tactical "1 battleship engagement by the left". At 5.10, Baltic Squadron begins the deployment. At 5.14, all pocket battleships now in tactical position return the fire. Speed during deployment was16kts to 20kts.
The German battleships take their positions, Std20 (3T3x28cm), right of the German line go ahead at 18kts. Von der Tann - (2T2x38cm), in the middle of the line make a complete circle & follow Std20. Std21 (3T2x38cm) left in the line operate on opposite side with the light cruiser.
During the movement, Renown scored one hit on Std 20 at 5.16 near the t op of the tower. The main range finder & some optical material are damaged. At the same moment, a 11" shell from Std 20 hit Renown near the mast making light damage. Renown, now steering 60° is hit again by a 15" shell at 5.18, this shell, probably from Std21 hit the lifeboats near the second funnel & a fire begin in the middle of the battle cruiser. Distance is now about 12000m. The British Battle cruiser identifies correctly the pocket battleships and switches her fire to Std21, the most powerful german pocket battleship. Shortly later, at 5h23, the range is correctly obtained & the battlecruiser makes a hit on the aft 38cm turret, making the turret out of action. Std 21 altered course to port before turning together to 110° at 5.26.
Due to the poor visibility by snow, fire cease for a few minutes. However, at 5.29, Renown is hit on the bridge, probably by a 11" shell fire at 12850m by Std20, this shell destroyed the t op range finder. Study 21 with her 15" guns is now masked by the snow, so Renown switch her fire to Std20, At 5.30, This pocket battleship making 16kts, is now relatively clear in west at about 12700m. Before obtain the right range, Renown is hit again by a 11" shell near the bow.
The Renown's first salvo was about 300yds short, the 2nd straddled, at 5.32, the 3rd hit the pocket battleship in the middle, on deck boat. The shell passed through the 80mm armour deck & explodes in the aft starboard diesel room. The diesel is partially destroyed and a serious fire occurred, speed slow down to 14kts.The ship turn over and make screen smoke. Shortly later, Von der Tann reopens fire on Renown and obtains a 15" hit on Renown's funnel at 5h35. Apparently, some 5"9 shells from the cruiser or Von der Tann hits also Renown during this period. The 5"9 turrets of Von der Tann are use to help the 15" guns in range. At 5.38, the German admiral pocket battleship score a 15" hit at 11840m on A turret, putting the turret out of action.
The British Cruiser altered course & continue to hammer Std 20. At 5.40, Std20 is hit in the bow at about 12000m. The shell made serious damage in the bow. Some compartments were flooded. Her draught forward increases by 2'.
At 5.43, Std21 reopen fire on Renown at 10750m & makes a hit on the forecastle.
Von der Tann hit also Renown in a turbine room at 5.44. The turbine was damaged & stopped. Speed of the British BC decrease to 20kts.
Distance between the German pocket battleships & Renown is now about 11000m.
British destroyers & German torpedo boats fire some times during this period; a torpedo boat was slightly damage by a hit on the funnel.
Std20 is hit again at 5.46 on the aft deck, some officers's cabins are destroyed.
The visibility is now better. All pocket battleships are firing on the British battlecruiser. The 3 German ships outgunned the Renown & obtain 2 hits at 5.48 one hit a life boat & explode in the hangar, serious fire begin in the middle, one other 11" hit the 2nd port 5"25 turret, destroying the turret.
At 5.52, on Renown, aft turret is damaged by an other hit probably a 15"which put the turret out of action.
Std 21 Captain think that Renown with 2 turrets out of action & a reduce speed is now in defeat condition. He orders to hoist the flag"ready for 1 torpedo launch". Von Der Tann answers at 5.54.
2 minutes later, at 5.56, manoeuvring to be in good position, all pocket battleships launch 16 torpedoes to the Renown at 11000m & then, turn over at 20kts to escape the British Destroyers reactions
Renown firing with B turret only altered course to port before turning together to 220° at 5.58.
During the torpedo launch, Renown receives 1 more hit, a 15" on the forecastle. At 6.02 a 11" hit the belt. The amour was slightly driven and the hull plating bulged in, but no very serious damage was done, though the wings immediately below the amour were flooded for a length of c60ft.
3 British destroyers were in good position & launch torpedoes to Von der Tann at 5.59. Without effect due to the bad sea & the turn over of the pocket battleship. Von der Tann searchlights and bridge were damaged by shells from destroyers during this action. 
6.05 - With 2 turrets & 1 turbine damaged, important fire in hangar & deck boat, about 500tons water in the hull Admiral Withworth order retreat.
On Renown, 2 more hits were obtain during retreat, a 15" near the aft rangefinder and an 11" near the stern without serious effect.
Torpedoes launch by pocket battleships made no result in the storm.

German Baltic Squadron ceased completely fire when Renown disappears south at 23kts-6.16


Jef 

[Jefgte]

Possible scenar with Renown April 9th 1940


The Baltic Squadron is discover by Renown -5h05am

The cruiser, in front of the German Fleet line receives first the 15" splashes-5h16-distance 16500m
The cruiser retreat near the middle PBB.

The PBB are not disappointed because they had much tested battle tactics since many years; a battle with a slower BB, a faster BB...
The tactical is to disperse the 3PBB, every PBB operate individually.

Renown making 23kts in the storm, open fire on VdT, in the middle of the German line
All PBB return fire. Speed 16 to 20 kts

Std20 (3T3x28cm), first of the German line go ahead
VdT - Admiral Lutjens (2T2x38cm), second in the line make a complete circle & follow Std21.
Std21 (3T2x38cm) third in the line make a turn over & operate on opposite side.

Hits
On Std20, tower rangefinder out - 5h21
On Renown near the mast
On Renown deck boat
On Std21, aft 38cm turret out
On Renown bridge, main rangefinder out
On Renown hull
On Std21, deck boat & diesels, serious fire, speed slow down to 16kts
On Renown funnel
On Renown bow
On Renown A turret, turret out
On Std20 bow, serious damage 
On Renown hull
On Renown turbine, speed slow down to 20kts
On Std20 aft deck
On Renown deck boat, serious fire
On Renown bridge
On Renown aft turret, turret out - distance about 10000 to 12000m
Torpedoes lauch made by PBB. No result in the storm
On Renown, hit, on deck
On Renown, fore part of hull
With 2 turrets, 1 turbine out, great fire on deck boat, Admiral Withworth order retreat.
On Renown, 2 more hits during retreat


German PBB ceased fire when Renown disappears south at 21kts- 6h41

-----------------------------

The tactical is to disperse the enemy fire, so, 1 or 2 PBB are quiet to fire.
When the enemy is well hammered & his speed slow down, 2 torpedoes launch are made by the PBB.

--------------------

Harold, I have changed the scenar because, I think that in the storm, the torpedoes could n't maintain the right direction.

With better sea condition, PBB could make accurate torpedoes lauch & ...certainly sink Renown



Jef 

Oups!!!

Could not edit my posts to make corrections

[t-geronimo]

Editing is possible only for the first 48 hours after making a post due to security reasons. 

[Jefgte]

OK big Chief 


Well, for uniformise the Designs Studies & 1/700 models with the battle,

Study 20 was 3T3x28cm the rebuilt was Study 21, 3T2x38cm

So, in the battle, reverse 20 & 21

The 2 groupes are now
Study 20 (3T3x28cm) is near Von der Tann
Study 21 (3T2x38cm) is with the K kreuzer



Jef 

[Jefgte]

 

The writting of the scenario & the design of the battle take about 3 hours.

Here is the scan of the battle

The points with H are Hits
The multiples small lines are the torpedoes lauch made by the Baltic Squadron




Von der Tann actualy in the Jefgte's Shipyards
Scale of the drawing: 1/700





Std 20 &21 ( 'll be in the Jefgte's Shipyards from sept to dec)   
Scale of the drawing: 1/700






2 other scenarios are possible with the Baltic Squadron:

The Barentz sea Battle
The Cap North Battle



Jef

[Huszar]

coooooool!

Now I know, what I will be do on weekend 

I hope, you have no problems with a "neutral" re-play 


alex