Hello everybody,
I think many of you know very well the Prinz Eugen Rheinubung film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY
Inside this film there is the famous double sequence of Bismarck firing to HMS Prince of Wales and receiving some shells in return too.
The Bismarck film is divided into 2 sections ( cutted by a PK censor for propaganda reasons and with an insertion of Hood sinking scene of 6 seconds in between them ).
A careful analysis will demonstrate easily that the 2 Bismarck sequences were connected and has been only cutted for that censor insertion in between, so it is a unique scene we were having originally.
If we count the first Bismarck firing scene starting at counter 05.40 and ending at 06.44, we have 64 seconds.
Than we have as said the 5-6 seconds of Hood sinking and PoW firing inserted by the PK censor.
Following we have another Bismarck sequence from 06.50 ending at 07.12 of the tape film counter, so other 22 seconds.
Removing the censor insertion of Hood in between as said and joining the 2 Bismarck sequences as it was originally .....
.... we have 64+22= 86 seconds which is the subject of this thread !
Is anybody interested on realize were those 86 seconds fit on Prinz Eugen original battle map track and what do they show of the Bismarck and the Denmark Strait battle ?
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Hello everybody,
ok, lets put it as an " enigma " to be resolved and see who is really good on history investigation and re-construction :O/Y
Here some inputs, first the film interpretation done by some experts here in :
http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/film.htm
than the photos identification by National Historical ( NH ) american archive numbers here in :
http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/pg_photos.htm
and the original HMS Prince of Wales gunnery report here in :
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509guns.htm
last the Prinz Eugen Denmark Strait original battle map here in :
http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/pgbattlemap.gif
with the use of those information you should be easily able to complete the matrix of timing I am attaching here following and determine the correct battle time on the third column.
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
... just the evidence about the 2 sequences been originally one before a Propaganda Kompanie censor cutted them and inserted the 6 seconds of Hood sinking and PoW firing film between them ....
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
... and an easier way to read the HMS Prince of Wales gunnery report at Denmark Strait against Bismarck during the first action on May 24th, 1941 , .... in this way it is easy to see how many shells were falling every salvo around the Bismarck ...
... now one will immediately think how many shells for every salvo the PG film shows falling around the Bismarck ... :MZ:
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
If I am not mistaken and understand it correctly, the battle time should have been from 0603 to 0604.
Hello everybody,
@ Gotz,
you are very close, congratulations !!!
... as the answer according to my findings I am going to explain soon after is that those 86 seconds falls inside the battle time slot : 06.03 and 30 seconds ... and 06.05.00.
Inside this 90 seconds elapsed time, with due tolerances of course, those 86 seconds are included.
May I ask you which were the elements you used to determine your findings ?
Because this is the goal of this thread, to share those elements and their evaluations all together .... :MZ:
I am attaching a battle map on last version enlarged based on Prinz Eugen original battle map to make it easier to explain.....
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Thanks for making this clear, Antonio.
There should be no doubt anymore that Bismarck was never, ever on port side of Prinz Eugen during this period (wink, wink)
Happy discussing ~ Olaf!
Hello Antonio!
Zitat von: Antonio Bonomi am 12 Juni 2012, 09:16:17
May I ask you which were the elements you used to determine your findings ?
My thoughts were that it must have been after the German ships turned to starbord in order to avoid the torpedoes which had been heard aboard
Prinz Eugen. By turning away from the direction the torpedoes (allegedly) came from the German ships not only showed their narrow silhouettes, but also tried to get out of the range of those torpedoes.
At this time of the battle
Bismarck could be seen on the starboard side of
Prinz Eugen with her guns pointing and firing to her port aft sector.
By using the listing of the salvoes fired by
Prince of Wales, which you had provided in your posting # 3, I concluded that it must have been from 06:03 onwards, when
Prince of Wales could only fire with one single gun from her Y-turret her last two shots in the battle. Those two single shots can be seen falling in Min 05:57 and 06:14 of the Wochenschau newsreel.
Greetings
Thomas
Hello everybody,
@Olaf,
no doubts anymore since several years that Bismarck was never ever on Prinz Eugen port side before 06.08 during the Denmark Strait battle.
No doubts ! anymore since many years that Bismarck Denmark Strait photos and PG Rheinubung Film are printed correctly and cannot be reversed at all, ... because of dozens of proven reasons and evidences both sides, German and British well reported on official documents.
To make a long story short and hopefully close this matter once forever here the way I can summarize it for everybody benefit and future discussions to know more about this battle.
Bismarck only fired to port side toward SE (South-East), were the enemy Hood and Prince of Wales were compared to her position and course, since she was North of the enemy and sailing toward SW (South-West).
Denmark Strait battle time from the Bismarck stand point duration was 15 minutes, from 05.55 until 06.09.
We can divide those 14 battle minutes on 2 sections. The first section of 8 minutes from the beginning of the battle by Bismarck at 05.55 until the first issued torpedo alarm by Prinz Eugen at 06.03 (Prinz Eugen signal of Torpedo Gerausche 279). The second section of 6 minutes from the first torpedo alarm at 06.03 until the cease fire at 06.09.
FIRST BATTLE SECTION 05.55 - 06.03
On the first battle section of 8 minutes we have Bismarck track because of the 18 main salvoes that PoW fired to her, it was a straight run in " Kiellinie " ( Ref. Vize-Adm Hubert Schmundt report ) on Prinz Eugen starboard side. Why surely on the starboard side of Prinz Eugen ? Because we have several reported evidences of it, it was written by F.O. Busch into his book "Prinz Eugen Im ersten gefecht" and showed by Schmitz-Westerholt famous paint of the salvo that sunk the Hood fired at 06.00 and used on several official Kriegsmarine wartime publications.
TURNING TO STARBOARD AT 06.03
We have the Prince of Wales gunnery report and Prince of Wales official battle maps showing us the timing of those events and the turning away of Bismarck at 06.03 more or less at the same time as Prince of Wales did.
It was reported by
HMS Prince of Wales Captain J.C. Leach writings to Hood board of Inquiry :
" It now seems probable that the enemy turned away at the same time as "Prince of Wales" and about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period".
Lieutenant Commander Geoffrey Brooke, the Prince of Wales artillery officer located into the aft rangefinder of the 356 mm ( 14 inches ), which wrote on his book "ALARM STARBOARD !" at page 57:
" I realized it was a good thing the Captain had not delayed that much longer ( ref. the PoW turn away of 160 degrees ). We got our binocular on to the enemy just before she was hidden by the smoke, only to see her (i.e. the Bismarck) – not without a sense of relief – alter course away too. Thus the range opened quickly, and the cease fire gong put an end to Y turret's spirited effort."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/4388715/Lt-Cdr-Geoffrey-Brooke.html#
On same book at page 58 also Commander A.C. Luce on board the Norfolk saw all things and wrote to his wife on a letter :
" The sight of Prince of Wales steaming through the smoke and wreckage (i.e. Hood sinking) firing all her guns, and with fountains of splashes all round her, was a never to be forgotten one. Bismarck was hard hit at this time and turned away with troubles on her own."
The event of Bismarck turning away on course 270 west at around 06.03 battle time is well reported on all HMS Prince of Wales official battle maps.
The Prinz Eugen signal of Torpedo Gerausche 279 causing Bismarck turn to starboard at 06.03 was reported into several Kriegsmarine documents even by Admiral Erich Raeder to Adolf Hitler at Berghof on June 6, 1941.
SECOND BATTLE SECTION 06.03 -06.09
The torpedo alarm by Prinz Eugen at 06.03 (Torpedo Gerausche 279 reference Prinz Eugen official battle map ) and Bismarck turning away on course 270 west because of it changed completely the battle scenario.
As showed on several photos and into PG Rheinubung film, the Bismarck was sailing on Prinz Eugen starboard side and had to fire with all the main turrets turned backward on her portside while sailing west.
After a series of turns of Prinz Eugen Bismarck returned on course 220 south west from the course 270 west and crossed Prinz Eugen wake while ordering the Prinz Eugen not to shoot over the Flagship at 06.08 ( reported into official documents). This was the only time into the main guns engagement of Denmark Strait were Bismarck was on Prinz Eugen port side, just less than a minute battle time, and only at the end of it. Soon after the "Cease fire" order came from Admiral G. Lutjens to both warships at 06.09.
@ Thomas,
you have evaluated very well the battle scenario and the turning toward west because of the Torpedo alarm on course 270 already occurred by Bismarck, which was firing backwards on port side aft as the film shows.
Than you correctly noticed the fall of salvoes by HMS Prince of Wales and the fact that it was a single shell on both occasions and you associated correctly to the 2 last local control fired single shells. This is the reason why I attached the explanation of the film and the PoW gunnery report and scheme above.
Those are crucial to understand the situation and the timing and they are not so easy to be understood by the PoW gunnery report itself without a good way to read them as they occurred. This is why I created with some skilled friends time ago that scheme showing exactly salvo by salvo what HMS Prince of Wales did on every salvo and making easier to read her complicated gunnery report, especially for the last 3 local control fired salvoes by Y turret during the first action on May 24, 1941.
Now it was very easy to determine the timing as it is unique after 06.03 surely and not after 06.05 since at that point HMS Prince of Wales was not firing anymore.
A quick look at Prinz Eugen battle map and related Bismarck sailing position and there are no doubts that those 86 seconds are inside 06.03 and 06.05 battle time as said, with Bismarck having already made her turn on course 270 west, so after 06.03 and 30 seconds more or less.
Now we can try to be a bit more precise, ... and this is what I am going to release soon to you ...
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
To be honest, I think PG is still turning a bit to starboard in the film, maybe at the end of his turn. From the map it appears as BS started turning first, then followed by PG. It always appeared strange to me that the torpedo-alarm came from PG (did it?), but BS reacted first to it. Why did it take PG a minute to react to this torpedo alarm? Anyway, this is not the question here. As mentioned elsewhere, I think both ships are on a slightly converging course, as if PG is still turning. In the film BS appears to be on a straight course, which puts it between 6:03 and 6:05. I have to look up firing procedures again, but is BS in the film trying to straddle PoW again after both she and PoW turned, because BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut'? Term?)?
Happy guessing ~ Olaf!
Hello everybody,
@ Olaf,
you are a very good observer of what is going on into the film now, and perfectly associating it on what the battle maps and situation were on that moment.
YES, the torpedo alarm was issued by Prinz Eugen by a flag, and Kpt zur See E. Lindemann reacted immediately turning Bismarck away to west on course 270 and out of the torpedo range as perfectly noticed by Thomas.
Prinz Eugen did it a bit after and those 2 course changes scrambled both Schneider and Jasper gunnery that was perfectly on the spot on PoW on that moment with several hits, ... they had to restart their firing procedures, ... if you read F.O. Busch book it is perfectly described how Jasper was "not happy" about it with Brinkmann, which explained that he had to do it because of the torpedo alarm.
As said to Thomas the key is the landing of the 2 last Prince of Wales shells which makes it easier to determine perfectly the timing once associated with Prinz Eugen and Bismarck tracks and course changes now.
Look at this scheme and you can determine as I did that the second Y turret local control salvo of 1 shell, so the 20 salvo of PoW, landed on Bismarck stern at 06.03 and 45 seconds more or less, with the due timing tolerances of course.
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Zitat von: Olaf am 12 Juni 2012, 13:21:19
I have to look up firing procedures again, but is BS in the film trying to straddle PoW again after both she and PoW turned, because BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut'? Term?)?
Bismarck hatte 06:01 Uhr nach der Explosion der
Hood Zielwechsel auf
Prince of Wales gemacht und mußte sich deshalb mit Halbsalven der vorderen und achteren Turmgruppe neu einschießen.
Bismarck's main artillery at 0601 had changed its target to
Prince of Wales after sinking
Hood and had to straddle her with half-salvoes of the fwd and aft turrets separately.
Zitatbecause BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut')
unabhängig davon, dass die ersten Salven in Richtung POW Einschießen waren,
war das generelle Schießverfahren im Wirkungsschießen ebenfalls durch abwechselnde Halbsalven der vorderen und der hinteren Turmgruppen gekennzeichnet, zum einen waren dadurch die Beobachtungsmöglichkeiten für die Einschläge verbessert
zum anderen entsteht eine durchgängige Einschlaglinie der sich ein beschossenes Schiff durch eigenes Manövrieren schlechter entziehen kann, als bei Einschlaggruppen in größeren Abständen
bei 15 sekunden Halbsalvenintervall legt das beschossene Ziel gerade mal etwa 200 m zurück.
Siehe auch die Beschreibung vom Kommandanten PoW, als er die tödlichen Treffer auf Hood schilderte. Dabei sprach er von drei Wassersäulen und dass etwas auf Hood geschehen war.
Hello everybody,
if you go into the link of PoW gunnery report at point E you have the observation of Bismarck fire methodology, here in :
http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509guns.htm
E - Notes on Enemy Gunnery
1.Spreads. - The small size of the enemy spreads was remarkable. The driving bands of the 15-in. projectile discovered in Prince of Wales are in a perfect state of repair and appear tougher and larger than those of our shell. Although this may assist the accurate ranging of their guns, it is likely that such driving bands cause the guns to wear more quickly.
2.Method of Fire. - Bismarck appeared to fire the whole of her fore group (i.e. "A" and "B" turrets), followed by the whole of her aft group ("X" and "Y" turrets). Towards the end of the morning action, guns in a group were definitely observed to "ripple" as if one or more turrets were in gunlayers' firing.
3.All enemy cruisers and capital ships appear to have their large rangefinders mounted considerably higher than than in our ships. Provided vibration can be eliminated, this fact should be kept in mind in future designs of our ships.
Changing subject back on my 86 seconds of Bismarck as showed into the PG Film ......
Now once we have determined that the PoW Y turret 20th salvo of 1 gun landed approximately at 06.03 and 45 seconds between Prinz Eugen and Bismarck stern as showed into the PG Rheinubung film, we can very easily determine the whole details timing inside those 86 seconds.
So we have the beginning of the film timing, the 2 last PoW salvo shell landing timing ( 20 and 21 ), 3 Bismarck photos which are NH69728, NH 69726 and NH 69727 precise timing and the end of the film sequence.
Of course nobody in this world can try to "reverse" this film and those photos, as it is irrefutable evident that Bismarck is sailing west and firing backwards aft on her own port side.
Comments welcome ...... Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Zitat von: Thoddy am 12 Juni 2012, 17:33:43
Zitatbecause BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut')
unabhängig davon, dass die ersten Salven in Richtung POW Einschießen waren,
war das generelle Schießverfahren im Wirkungsschießen ebenfalls durch abwechselnde Halbsalven der vorderen und der hinteren Turmgruppen gekennzeichnet
Der IV. AO der
Bismarck, Kptlt. Frhr. von Müllenheim-Rechberg schildert das aber in seinem Buch
Schlachtschiff Bismarck [Weltbild, Augsburg 1999, S. 121 f.] anders:
»Im Telefon hörte ich Schneiders Kommando für die erste Salve und nach Ablauf der Geschoßflugzeit auch seine erste Aufschlagbeobachtung: "Kurz!". Schneider verbesserte Enfernung und Schieber, kommandierte dann eine Vier-Hekto-Gabelgruppe. Deren obere Grenzsalve beobachtete er als "weit", die Standsalve als "deckend", und umgehend kam sein Kommando: "Vollsalven gut, schnell!". Im Telefon hörte ich weiterhin die ruhige Stimme Schneiders, seine artilleristischen Korrekturen, seine Beobachtungen. "Gegner brennt", sagte er einmal und danach wieder: "Vollsalven gut, schnell!". Regelmäßig kündigte ihm die vordere Artillerierechenstelle das "Achtung - Aufschlag!" an. [...] Dann hörte ich wieder Schneider: "Nanu, war das ein Blindgänger? Der hat sich wohl reingefressen". Im Telefon ertönte jetzt ein immer lauteres und erregteres Stimmengewirr - da schien sich Sensationelles anzubahnen, wenn es nicht bereits geschehen war [...] hörte ich schon im Telefon den Schrei: "Sie fliegt in die Luuuft!"«Ich verstehe das so, daß das Einschießen, d.h. die Vier-Hekto-Gabelgruppe (untere Grenzsalve, Standsalve und obere Grenzsalve) jeweils mit Teilsalven der vorderen, bzw. achteren Turmgruppe gefeuert wurden und dann das Wirkungsschießen mit Vollsalven erfolgte.
Und im Bericht des I. AO der
Prinz Eugen, die ja dieselbe Turmaufstellung hatte, Kkpt. Paulus Jasper, heißt es:
»[...] Um 0455 Uhr erhielt ich "Feuererlaubnis" von der Brücke und eröffnete sofort das Feuer mit einer Vollsalve auf 202 hm. Die Vollsalve wurde mit Kz., die hinter den Rohren als Bereitschaftsmunition lagerte, gefeuert. Infolge Versagens der Lochung am Schußwertrechner kam keine Aufschlagsmeldung, so daß die Aufschläge nicht mit Sicherheit als eigene angesprochen werden konnten. Ich wiederholte daher die Vollsalve, wurde beobachtungsfähig und bildete eine 4-Hekto-Gabelgruppe, von der ich nur bei der unteren Grenzsalve zwei Kurzaufschläge beobachtete, während Oben und Mitte als fraglich angesprochen werden mußte. [...]
Gleich darauf bekam ich von der Schiffsführung den Befehl zum "Zielwechsel links" auf den zweiten Gegner, wodurch nunmehr "Bismarck" und "Prinz Eugen" über Kreuz schossen. [...] Das zweite Schießen begann ich ebenfalls mit einer Vollsalve und anschließender 4-Hektogruppe, mit der ich 0459 Uhr eingeschossen war und in das Wirkungsschießen eintrat. [...]
Bei der XXVIII. Salve drehte das Schiff soweit ab, daß dem Vormars das Ziel durch Schornsteingase verdeckt wurde. Gleichzeitig hatten die vorderen Türme Hartlage. Ich befahl Übergang auf achteren Stand und gab die Leitung an Oblt. z.S. z.V. Albrecht ab, der mit Teilsalven "gut schnell" weiterfeuerte und die Batterie mit geringen Standverbesserungen am Ziel hielt bis zum Feuereinstellen.
Während des Gefechtes drehte das eigene Schiff dreimal hart. Es wurde während der Drehung weitergeschossen. Vorübergehend kam die Batterie im Zusammenhang damit zweimal seitlich vom Ziel ab. Bei der dritten Ausweichbewegung kam die Schußrichtung unmittelbar vor den "Bismarck". Ich erhielt daraufhin von der Schiffsführung den Befehl: "Bismarck nicht überschießen!" und gleich darauf: "Feuer einstellen!". Das Feuer wurde um 0509 Uhr eingestellt.«
Hello everybody,
do you think that this scheme I made time ago is correctly showing the Bismarck firing methodology at Denmark Strait ?
As showed into those 86 PG Rheinubung film seconds, while Bismarck is firing to port side with her main and secondary turrets to HMS Prince of Wales, she was firing the group of main turrets so A+B and later C+D, ... 4 main guns each time. The 3 port side secondary 150 mm turrets were firing all together.
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Hallo
ich verstehe den Befehl "Vollsalven schnell und gut" so, dass ab da die Turmgruppen einfach so schnell wie möglich weiter feuerten, ohne auf eventuelle Korrekturen oder Befehle zu warten. Es heißt meiner Meinung nach nicht, das die Turmgruppen aufeinander warten.
Gruß
Thomas
Bin kein Experte für diese Fragen; habe den Schmalenbach-Film vor langer Zeit mal gesehen und meine mich zu erinnern, dass in späteren Sequenzen Vollsalven der SA erkannbar sind. Desweiteren ist glaube ich im Abschlussbericht zur Seeziel-Artillerie des Bismarcks ausdrücklich vermerkt, dass das effektiveste Schießverfahren der SA aus Teilsalven der Turmgruppen besteht, eben nicht Vollsalven. Insofern überrascht mich, dass Vollsalven geschossen wurden.
Antonio, did I get it right that you think (thought in 2008?) they started with a full salvo in order to evaluate, and then proceeded with partial salvoes from turrets groups A+B and C+D? Sounds like a waste of ammunition ...
Happy discussing ~ Olaf!
Hello everybody,
@ Olaf,
this is how Kpt Ltnt P. Jasper fired the Prinz Eugen main artillery at DS, I imagine KKpt A. Schneider on Bismarck fired on the same way :
German language
Die Ortung meldete Bug rechts zwei Dez. heran, 25 sm, Entfernung 210 hm. Um 0455 Uhr erhielt ich Feuererlaubnis" von der Brücke und eröffnete sofort das Feuer mit einer Vollsalve auf 202 hm. Die Vollsalve wurde mit Kz.[Kopfzünder], die hinter den Rohren als Bereitschaftsmunition lagerte, gefeuert. Infolge Versagens der Lochung am Schußwertrechner kam keine Aufschlagmeldung, sodaß die Aufschläge nicht mit Sicherheit als eigene angesprochen werden konnten. Ich wiederholte daher die Vollsalve, wurde beobachtungsfähig und bildete eine 4 - Hektogruppe, von der ich nur bei der unteren Grenzsalve 2 Kurzaufschläge beobachtete, während oben und Mitte als fraglich weit angesprochen werden mußte. Die Weitaufschläge selbst waren nicht zu sehen, sondern wurden durch das Ziel verdeckt bzw. verschluckt. Dahingegen bildete sich während der Gabelgruppe ein ungewöhnlich starker Feuerschein auf dem Achterschiff des Gegners, in der Höhe des achteren Mastes. Das Feuer entstand an der Bb.- Seite des Gegners, denn die Aufbauten standen als scharfe Silhouetten davor. Gleich darauf bekam ich von der Schiffsführung den Befehl zum "Zielwechsel links" auf den 2. Gegner, wodurch nunmehr "Bismarck" und "Prinz Eugen" über Kreuz schossen. Das Einschlagen der entscheidenden Salve des "Bismark"habe ich nicht mehr beobachten können, Ich ließ den Zielgeber das 2. Ziel anschneiden und verlor damit das 1. aus dem Gefechtsfeld. Von der Detonation des 1. Zieles habe ich daher nichts wahrgenommen.
Das 2. Schießen begann ich ebenfalls mit einer Vollsalve und anschließender 4 - Hektogruppe, mit der ich 0559 Uhr eingeschossen war und in das Wirkungsshießens eintragt. Die Entfernung war zu dieser Zeit etwa 160 - 170 hm. Im Laufe des Wirkungsschießens habe ich zweimal Treffer beobachtet, beide wieder Bb.-gleichzeitig von der Mittelartillerie des "Bismarck" beschossen, die es gut eindeckte. Etwa bei der VIII. Salve dieses Schießens drehte der Gegner zunächst stark zu.
... and in English language ( thanking Ulrich some years ago :wink: )
The position (range-finding) station reported 2 contacts off the right bow traveling at 25 knots, distance 210 hectometers. I received "permission to fire" from the bridge at 0455 hours and immediately commenced firing a full salvo at 202 hectometers. The full salvo was fired using nose fuzed rounds (Kopfzünder) which were stored behind the (gun) barrels as ready-use ammunition. The observed impacts (shell splashes) could not be ascribed with certainty as belonging to our own [shells] because of (key punch) perforation failures in the firing calculator [and thus no range correction report could be made]. Therefore, I repeated [firing] a full salvo, which turned out to be observable and formed a straddle ladder of which I could only observe two brief impacts from the lower limiting [rounds of the] salvo, while the higher and middle [rounds] had to be called questionably too far. The distant impacts were not visible, since they were concealed by the target. By contrast, (after firing) the bracketing group an extraordinarily bright fire flash appeared on the enemy ship's aft section at the level of the aft mast. The fire developed on the portside of the opponent, since the superstructures stood out as sharp silhouettes. Immediately thereafter I received the order from the ship's command to "Change target (to the) left" toward the second opponent, whereby the fire of "Bismarck" and "Prinz Eugen" now crossed. I was unable to observe "Bismarck's" decisive salvo because I was no longer in a position to do so. I ordered the target officer (target giver) to acquire the second target and thus lost the first (target) from the [range finder's] visual field of action. Consequently, I did not perceive the detonation of the first target.
As was the case earlier, I commenced second firing with a full salvo followed by a ranging group (straddle ladder) which zeroed me in as of 0459. Firing for effect (rapid fire) was then initiated. The distance at that time was 160-170 hectometers. During the completion of measuring fire effectiveness, I observed two well-placed strikes which again were fired simultaneously from the portside by the secondary artillery of the "Bismarck". At around the eighth salvo, the opponent turned hard toward (us).
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Hello everybody,
does anybody knows what this structure was used for on Prinz Eugen midship at deck level ?
It was located between the crane and the midship 105 mm A/A gun.
Thanks in advance for any help...... :O/Y
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Could be a drain ...
Bye!
Hello everybody,
@ Bernd,
that is what I thought at first, ... but it is not a drain (waste/garbage structure).
It was there from the beginning of Prinz Eugen life on autumn 1940,... until the atomic test in Bikini, .. always there, ... one on each side.
It is a metal fixed cabinet, ... should be something like a controller cabinet, ... either for the crane, ... or something similar ... any idea ?
You can see it at the beginning of Rheinubung film , before Adm Lutjens comes on board, .... from were I took that image frame, ... and inside the 86 seconds of Bismarck firing at Denmark Strait on the first 20 seconds, from 05.40 until 06.00 movie time ( you see it very well at 05.46 movie time ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY
This detail allows to know perfectly from were on starboard side of Prinz Eugen the PK cameraman was located to record the Bismarck firing at Denmark Strait.
He was on the main deck exactly were that cabinet was, between the crane and the 105 mm on straboard side, shooting to north-west.
It is the same position from were PK Kriegsbericther Josef Lagemann few minutes after will shoot the photo NH69730, the "flash effect" photo under the 105 mm gun barrels.
A complete different position they had on the other side of the Prinz Eugen, on port side while he was recording the Hood and the Prince of Wales, toward south east, but that exact position I know very well already because of the Prinz Eugen railings, ... I know it since some years.
Here another view of it ..... from the back, ... outboard
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Hello everybody,
here it is inside the 86 seconds, .... now we know exactly were the PK cameraman was on Prinz Eugen main deck on starboard side filming the Bismarck.
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Interesting object, never saw it ...
Here's another view at it ...
Happy guessing ~ Olaf!
Edit: ... and another one, this time the lid in its open position...
Yes, but sadly a very small view. :|
Das Bild mit dem gepanzerten 2 cm Vierling ist interessant. Meistens war die leichte Flak ungepanzert. Sogar zu späterer Kriegzeit. Von welchem Datum stammt das Bild?
Diese Aufnahme entstand, als sich PG bereits in Amerika befand. Das genaue Aufnahmedatum habe ich ad hoc nicht auf der Pfanne ...
Happy guessing ~ Olaf!
Hello everybody,
that photo of Prinz Eugen with the 20 mm flak vierling shielded was taken in Philadelpia on February 1946 ( Photo Nr. USS Prinz Eugen IX300 - 378-46-3 ).
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Thanks a lot Antonio! top
With regard to the mystery object, it looks as if it could be folded down (backwards). What about that it contains the coupling for the fuel hose used during replenishment at sea?
On the other hand, in that area - both on port and starboard side - we have galleries. Maybe there is a rubbish shredder directly under that object. Is there an outlet in the hull?
Happy guessing ~ Olaf!
Hello everybody,
@ Olaf,
it can be what you said so a waste container, or a container for tools, but it can be a cabinet for the crane control, or for the extendable arm used to recover the Arado, or some comand cabinet for the boats, I really do not know what it is.
But it is there one each side as you saw.
What is important is that we know now, thanking that cabinet, were the PK cameraman was on Prinz Eugen starboard side making the film of the Bismarck after the turn to starboard, ... so after 06.03 and 30 seconds ... during the Denmark Strait battle.
On the other side of the Prinz Eugen, ... so on port side, ... we know were it was located once there taking film of the British warships ( Hood and PoW ), he was exactly were the modified railings used to connet the bridge to get outboard of the ship were. It is well proven by the existing film and photos.
Here under, on this aerial view photo of Prinz Eugen taken on 1945, ... I showed with 2 arrows were he was and in which direction he was making film and Lagemann was taking the photos. To go from one side to the other they used the aisle just under the Arado hangar.
Now everything is easy to be understood, and it is also logic, they were not disturbing any shooting operation of the ship in action once there and could move one side to the other of Prinz Eugen in few seconds.
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Zitat von: Antonio Bonomi am 17 Juni 2012, 15:27:50
does anybody know what this structure was used for on Prinz Eugen midship at deck level ?
It was located between the crane and the midship 105 mm A/A gun.
Is it possible that it has something to do with the torpedo armament?
Paul Schmalenbach writes in his book
Schwerer Kreuzer »Prinz Eugen« [Heyne, München 1982, S. 94]:
»[...] ein Torpedoauswanderungsmesser (TAM) mittschiffs zur Messung der seitlichen Abwanderung des Zieles von einer im Raum festgehaltenen Geraden als Maß für die Lage des Zieles zum Zielstrahl und die Zielgeschwindigkeit«Greetings
Thomas
Hello everybody,
@Thomas,
this is very interesting indeed !!!!!
I will try to find more infos about it but if it is true that it is the " Torpedoauswanderungsmesser (TAM) " than we have an additional confirmation that we are looking at the starboard side of the Prinz Eugen of course since theer is Bismarck visible.
In fact, exactly on the same moment during the battle of the Denmark Strait there was activity going on about the launching of the torpedo on the port side ordered by Kpt zur See H. Brinkmann to KptLtnt ( Torpedo Officer ) Sigurd Reimann since the very early stage of the battle.
This only means that if that equipment is in fact the TAM, the one on port side was surely manned by Ltnt Reimann and his team on that moment, and this is probably the reason why the PK guys to take photos and film of the British ships on port side, ... positioned themselves more toward the crane as photo evidences clearly show.
You can read Ltnt S. Reimann describing what he was doing here :
http://www.kbismarck.com/archives/pg002.html
I am assuming now that the TAM is what he calls TZA on his report ....
Bye / Gruss Antonio :MG:
Hallo Antonio Bonomi und Götz von Berlichingen:
um was für ein Ding es sich auf Antonio Bonomis Fotos handelt, weiss ich auch nicht. Auf dem Plan der "Prinz Eugen", im Massstab
1 : 200, der dem Schmalenbach-Buch beigefügt ist, ist an den in Frage stehenden Stellen nichts eingezeichnet.
Aber sicher bin ich mir, dass es sich weder um einen TZA (Torpedozielapparat) noch um einen TAM (Torpedoauswanderungsmesser)
handeln kann. Beides waren Geräte mit Optiken. Dies fehlt bei dem in Frage stehenden Objekt. Das Objekt steht zudem an Oberdeck,
TZA und TAM gehören jedoch zur Feuerleitung, sind also nahe bei Brücke, Kommandostand, Nachtleitstand. Und der Ausdruck
"mittschiffs" bei Schmalenbach bezieht sich auf den vorderen gepanzerten Kommandostand, dort drin war mittschiffs der TAM.
Me too, I don't know what kind of device can be seen on Antonio Bonomi's photos. A view at the drawings of "Prinz Eugen" in the
1 : 200 scale, added to the Schmalenbach-book, shows no items at the positions in question.
But I'm rather sure that this device is neither a TZA (= torpedo aiming device) nor a TAM (= torpedo aberration measurement
device). Both were apparatuses with optics. These are lacking at the device in question. Besides, this object is situated at
the upper deck, but TZA and TAM belong to the fire control systems, usually situated near the bridge, conning tower, night-time
fire contol position. And the expression "amidships" of Schmalenbach refers to the armoured forward conning tower, inside of
which the TAM was situated amidships.
Grüsse / regards
RePe
Hello everybody,
@ RePe,
I agree with you, I checked on several books and what you stated is correct about those equipment being on the command bridge.
Still remain this " misterious " cabinet ... what is it ??
Bye / Antonio :MG:
Hallo allerseits,
habe diesen älteren Thread über die Google-Suche gefunden. Bin bzgl des Einschießens etwas im Unklaren. Eröffnet wurde (zumindest im IslandGefecht) immer mit ein bis zwei Vollsalven - wohl um die Rohre auf Temperatur zu bringen (zu strecken). Wie fallen deren Einschläge? Rot - also diagonal/quer zum Ziel was geringfügige Unterschiede in den einzelnen Rohrerhöhungen voraussetzt, oder blau - parallel zum Ziel so wie es die Batterie mit gleichen Rohrerhöhungen vorgibt?
Dementsprechend das weitere Einschießen mit Gabelgruppen: wenn rot würde die Standsalve evtl einen Treffer am Ziel generieren - der Rest davon bb u stb gestaffelt. Oder blau - die Standsalve liegt mit allen vieren parallel im Ziel bzw mit seitlicher Ablage zT davor/dahinter.
Könnt ihr mir das irgendwie erklären bzw grafisch darstellen?
Viele Grüße Frank
Zitat von: Antonio Bonomi am 23 Juni 2012, 09:26:09Hello everybody,
@ RePe,
I agree with you, I checked on several books and what you stated is correct about those equipment being on the command bridge.
Still remain this " misterious " cabinet ... what is it ??
Bye / Antonio :MG:
Hallo
Das ist ein Bootslager
Schönen Gruß von der Ostsee
kuk