Sich für die Details der Schlacht im Skagerrak Nacht 1942.04.24 V-702 und V-709 und S-Boote 2. Flottillia mit drei Französisch Zerstörer. Französisch schreibt, dass einige der deutschen Schiffe sanken sie. Ist das wahr?
Hai
If it's easier to you to wright down in english, feel free to do so. Google translations often leads to nonsense.
I don't think so. It's always written down as a short fight.
You have seen the Photos in the other thread. There was a lot of damage on the VBoats but i think non of them was sunk.
Thank you. Interested in information on KTB 7th V-fllotilla and 2th S-flotilla on this fight.
Hello,
The fight was actually on April 24th/25th 1940.
The French destroyers l'Indomptable, le Malin and le Triomphant made a night raid into the Skagerrak in order to engage German anti-submarine forces which were disturbing the British submarine operating in that area.
They found no subchasers, but on the way back they stubbled upon the two Vorpostenboote which were taken under fire, but with little effect. Vp.Bt. 702 had some damage and 14 wounded, whereas 709 was completely unharmed.
The MTB's S 10 and S 12 tried to engage they but never came within firing distance - the French destroyers were much faster! Max speed 45 knots.
Best regards
Jens
hi,
Zitat von: JensA am 10 April 2015, 14:54:40
The MTB's S 10 and S 12 tried to engage they but never came within firing distance - the French destroyers were much faster! Max speed 45 knots.
They were surely faster in any seastate (S 10 and S 12 were older boats, too), but 45 knots was the French super-destroyers' "trial speed" and unattainable with full load of fuel and ammunition.
We discussed that difference (for other ships, too) here in FMA several times and quite intensely.
greetings, Urs
Thank you very much.
French writing that boats fired torpedoes that they have seen and avoided. Boats were fired from all guns and destroyed. The speed of the French on their description was about 40 knots. They write that their boat was attacked in 03.26 hours.
What tasks are performed by S-10 and S-12 in the area of the battle with the French patrol boats?
Non of the German Boats have been destroyed.
hi,
Zitat von: cam am 12 April 2015, 00:26:50
.. battle with the French patrol boats?
Which
French patrol boats ?
greetings, Urs
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 12 April 2015, 23:27:10
hi,
Zitat von: cam am 12 April 2015, 00:26:50
.. battle with the French patrol boats?
Which French patrol boats ?
greetings, Urs
Did you mean
"battle of the French ships with German patrol boats." The battle took place 10 miles southeast of Lillesand. Why there was a German torpedo boats?
hi,
Zitat von: cam am 05 April 2015, 14:15:46
Interested in information on KTB 7th V-fllotilla and 2th S-flotilla on this fight.
Regrettably, there's no war diary of German E-boat squadrons during WESERÜBUNG in the files.
greetings, Urs
:cry:
Maybe there are reports of groups the West?
Who wrote that it was involved in a fight S-10 and S-12?
All things about this case from MGK West KTB's i already tell you on Tsushima.
hi,
Zitat von: igor am 14 April 2015, 06:21:47
All things about this case from MGK West KTB's i already tell you on Tsushima.
yes http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9124 top :MG:
but not all of us (myself included :O/Y) are able to understand it :MV:
Розайт = Rosyth und "Л'Эндомтабль" = "L' Indomptable" seems to be feasible, but the text :?
greetings, Urs
I can translate if anyone wish it.
hi,
Zitat von: igor am 15 April 2015, 04:59:26
I can translate if anyone wish it.
Yes, please, and thanks in advance.
greetings, Urs
KTB Minensch. COBRA:
04.20-04.40 furious gunfire. 7 V-Fl. reported about fighting with 3 DD of COSSACK class, then 2 S-boote - about 3 DD of FANTASQUE class.
06.45 minelayers arrived in Kristiansand-Sud.
From KTB of MGK West:
Message of some unknow source "auf Vk.III" (dunno what is this, a waveband's name?) timegroup 04.15: enemy DD breack thru Qu. 3625 (20 sea miles WSW Kristiansand-Sud).
Then two radiomessages from 7. V-Fl: 04.20 - been in fight with enemy DD's and 04.25 - need help immidiately, have been hit. Signals about fight were retranslated on variuos wavebands, in order to notify minelayers and 2 fisching trawlers (Fischdamrfer 26 and 37). At first there was doubts, if V-boote miv up "unknow DD" with minelayer's escort, and which course enemy was headed. From first message cours appear to be East, but later this assumption proved wrong. Because of hesitant fight with very weak opposition, MGK Weat supposed, that enemy has mines on board.
Immidiately request for air support was sent to FdLuft, they can send only 5 Do.17. Secondly X. Fliegercorps was informed and quickly answered, that one Kette would be send against enemy ships.
05.35 r/message from 7 V.-Fl: was engaged with 3 DD of COSSACK class, one gun knocked out, have WIA on board.
05.40 all was announced about start of recon plane and Kampfflugzeuge.
Only at 05.45 7 V-Fl reported their position: 3622 r.u. (10 miles SE Lillesund).
07.00 r/message from 6 T-Fl about S-boote's report. They reported 3 Fantasque's in Qu. 3625, heading SW, high speed.
09.09: B-dienst intersepted enemy report about bomber's attack in pos. 57.20 - 04.00 (Qu. AN4699). At once 6 T-Fl reported, that it was bombed by german planes near Kristiansan-Sud entrance.
Later recon plane of FdLuft send message about 3 DD's on 08.45, course 270, 25 kn, AN3582 (30 miles SSW Lindenes)
11.30 - r/message from 7 V-Fl timegroup 08.03. Qu. 3625 DD, course SSW, high speed, 2 funnels far one from another, clipper bow, made 40 salvoes on V-boote.
13.30 recon plane, which held contact, reported that he aim bombers on enemy force. Immediately B-dienst intercepted new enemy's report about bombing.
Zitat von: igor am 15 April 2015, 17:56:57
2 fisching trawlers (Fischdamrfer 26 and 37)
French write about the V-703 and V-706.
I think it was SCHIFF 26 J. PICKENBACK and SCHIFF 37 SCHLESWIG.
Zitat von: igor am 16 April 2015, 05:12:29
I think it was SCHIFF 26 J. PICKENBACK and SCHIFF 37 SCHLESWIG.
With this information
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/weseruebung/ausgabe.php?where_value=137
it is not clear when these ships came in his last campaign. Where they could be in the morning of 24.04?
All clear now. I scan KTB MNG West rearwards and find one message. It says that some TMB-mines would be send to Tronheim on trawlers 26 and 37. They was sheduled to go to Norvay on 23.04. So really, this was SCHIFFE 26 and 37, as i suppose.
Zitat"French writing that boats fired torpedoes that they have seen and avoided. Boats were fired from all guns and destroyed. The speed of the French on their description was about 40 knots. They write that their boat was attacked in 03.26 hours."
You should alway be very cautious to believe battle reports, as things often look very different from the other side.
The French also claimed to have fired at a submarine, but I have found no report on submarine being fired at, neither German nor British.
I don't think the MTB's fired any torpedoes - that is at least how I understand the following text from KTB des Marinegruppenkommando West 1.-30.4.40
26.4.40:
"Chef 2. S-Flottille Korv.Kapt. Petersen meldet sich bei Gruppe und berichtet unter anderem über die Gefechstberührung von ,,S 10" und ,,S 12" mit den drei französischen Zerstörern am Morgen des 24.4. Die Zerstörer wurden mit westlichem Kurs, hoher Fahrt laufend gesichtet und standen günstig zum Angriff zwischen beiden S-Booten. ,,S 10" gelang es, bei Lage 80o bis auf 3000 m heranzukommen, als die Zerstörer mit höchster Fahrt – vom Flottillenchef auf 35 – 37 sm – geschätzt – nach Süd auf ,,S 12" abdrehten und das Feuer auf das Boot eröffneten. Kurz darauf liefen die Zerstörer dann mit höchster Fahrt (etwa 35 sm) also wahrscheinlich ohne Minenschutz, über das Sperrstück I unserer Skagerraksperre nach Westen ab.
Ausfälle oder Beschädigungen sind auf ,,S 12" nicht eingetreten."
Jens
ZitatI think it was SCHIFF 26 J. PICKENBACK and SCHIFF 37 SCHLESWIG.
Die beiden Schiffen operienten als U-Bootsfallen in Skagerrak/Kattegat April 1940. Sie waren aber nicht in diese Gefecht involviert. Sie wurden wieder zur Vfg. B.S.N. entlassen.
Aus dem Gefechtsbericht und obenzitiere KTB "Corba" geht es deutlich vor, dass es sich um Vp.Bt. 702 und 709 handelte.
mfg.
Jens
ZitatThey were surely faster in any seastate (S 10 and S 12 were older boats, too), but 45 knots was the French super-destroyers' "trial speed" and unattainable with full load of fuel and ammunition.
We discussed that difference (for other ships, too) here in FMA several times and quite intensely.
Yes, they were really fast.
14 hours at 25-27 knots, 11 hour at 30 knots and 10 hours at 34-36 knots!
I can't think of any other vessels that could have made the same speed for so long. And that was also why they were chosen for that mission.
And even so, they didn't get as far East as planned before the captain chose to return. The idea was to get into the routes to Norway and to sink German sub chasers.
Regards
Jens
Zitat von: JensA am 17 April 2015, 14:36:02
Zitat
I don't think the MTB's fired any torpedoes - that is at least how I understand the following text from KTB des Marinegruppenkommando West 1.-30.4.40
26.4.40:
Thank you very much. This is very useful information. top
Is there any information as torpedoboats accompanied minelaers Roland and Cobra on 23-24.04.1940 transition?
According to war diary Cobra the ships were escorted by five torpedo boats of 6th torpedo boat flottilla.
But it is not said if only for depature or for the whole way.
Thank you.
And we know what connections Luftwaffe aircraft participated in the attacks on the French ships?
Zitat von: JensA am 17 April 2015, 14:51:47
Die beiden Schiffen operienten als U-Bootsfallen in Skagerrak/Kattegat April 1940. Sie waren aber nicht in diese Gefecht involviert. Sie wurden wieder zur Vfg. B.S.N. entlassen.
Aus dem Gefechtsbericht und obenzitiere KTB "Corba" geht es deutlich vor, dass es sich um Vp.Bt. 702 und 709 handelte.
V.702 und 709 waren beide boote in Gefecht mit Franzosische Zerstorern. Aber meine post ist antwort fur CAM's frage uber "fischerdampfern 26 und 37", genannten in KTB MNG West. Das waren SCHIFFE 26 (PICKENBACK) und 37 (SCHWABEN).
Zitat von: JensA am 17 April 2015, 14:36:02
You should alway be very cautious to believe battle reports, as things often look very different from the other side.
Yes i agree with all these words!
ZitatAnd we know what connections Luftwaffe aircraft participated in the attacks on the French ships?
No, there is a little mystery there.
The destroyers came under aerial attack on two occasions :
1.) 7.45-8.30: from 6-9 Junkers-planes according to the French statements. I haven't been able to identify them, but they must have come fra Luftwaffe, as nothing is mentioned about it the KTBs of Führer der Luft Ost or West.
2.) 13.00-14.45: four Heinkel He 111 from 2. and 3./K.Fl.Gruppe 806, Üttersen.
There is even more drama to it. At 8.46 the escorting battle flight of three Hudsons (220 Sqn) was attacked by two Me 109's (4./Jagdgeschwader 77, Kristiansand) and two of them were shot down.
Jens
hi,
Zitat von: t-geronimo am 17 April 2015, 16:27:21
According to war diary Cobra the ships were escorted by five torpedo boats of 6th torpedo boat flottilla. But it is not said if only for depature or for the whole way.
According to Rohwer's "Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945", the five-TB-escort of 6th TB flottilla operated with
Cobra one night later, April 24/25, during minelaying ops.
It is not mentioned explicitly whether they covered
Cobra and Roland
already during the transit from Wilhelmshaven to Kristiansand.
greetings, Urs
Thank you very much.
Ensign le Gall with "L 'Indomptable" and other French writing about the four attacks from the air: 06.45-07.15, 09.00, 11.30 and 13.50. In an article seen mention of involvement in the attacks 5 Do.17 KG / 3.
"Le Triomphant" was injured in the third.
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 17 April 2015, 17:58:22
According to Rohwer's "Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945", the five-TB-escort of 6th TB flottilla operated with Cobra one night later, April 24/25, during minelaying ops.
It is not mentioned explicitly whether they covered Cobra and Roland already during the transit from Wilhelmshaven to Kristiansand.
It seem that they have because in the war diary they were explicitly mentioned, see attachment.
For the way back it is not mentioned that they were from 6th t-boat-fl. So I was not 100% sure.
Thank you. :-)
Here is what wrote the French Flow ammunition in the battle with the German ships and boats:
l'Indomptable 128 coups de 138 (plus un nombre indéterminé de coups de 37 mm et de 13 mm sur des vedettes simples), le Malin 94, le Triomphant 60.
hi, t-g
Zitat von: t-geronimo am 17 April 2015, 19:04:36
It seem that they have because in the war diary they were explicitly mentioned, see attachment.
top :MG:
greetings, Urs
@ cam:
Who wrote it? War diary of the ships?
Zitat von: t-geronimo am 17 April 2015, 23:13:44
@ cam:
Who wrote it? War diary of the ships?
Une vie de Malin de Pierre Bassot (dépôt légal septembre 1988), pages 38 à 42 figurent des « Extraits du rapport établi à l'issue de l'opération Rake en Norvège, le 23 et 24 avril 1940, par le chef de la 8ème division de contre-torpilleurs.
The report of Captaine de Vaisseau Emile Barthes/Division Contre-Torpilleurs of 25th April 1940 can be found in:
National Archives/Kew: ADM 1/10541 - in French
Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv: RM 61 I/40 - German translation
Jens
ZitatUne vie de Malin de Pierre Bassot (dépôt légal septembre 1988), pages 38 à 42 figurent des « Extraits du rapport établi à l'issue de l'opération Rake en Norvège, le 23 et 24 avril 1940, par le chef de la 8ème division de contre-torpilleurs.
Does the book contain other information about operation "Rake" that the mentioned exerpts of the report?
best regards
Jens
Hallo Cam
ZitatIn an article seen mention of involvement in the attacks 5 Do.17 KG / 3.
Can you remember which article?
If it was planes from KG 3 that would explain why the attack was not mentioned in the reports of X. Fliegerkorps.
However, Wikipedia says:
The unit did not participate in Operation Weserübung but instead spent the spring training and resting in preparation for the decisive western offensive in 1940.
:|
Jens
hi,
Zitat von: JensA am 18 April 2015, 16:34:26
Can you remember which article?
Zitat von: Urs Heßling am 14 April 2015, 14:00:35
yes http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9124 top :MG:
greetings, Urs
... some minor details according to
Jean LASSAQUE
Les CT de 2800 tonnes du type Le Fantasque
LE TRIOMPHANT opened fire at an initial distance of 6.400 m against the forward enemy vessel visible abeam on the starboard side (VP 702 and VP 709).
As JensA already wrote, these French vessels were very speedy ship. According to the mentioned source, it seems that they made a contineous speed of well over 30 knots throughout the whole operation and only made 27 knots after leaving the port of Rosyth. A maximum speed of 36 knots is also documented. The only known machinery problems took place on board of LE MALIN during the return to port, when the speed of the task force had to be reduced from 36 to 32 knots for 40 minutes and another time from 36 to 30 knots for an hour. It´s also remarkable that each of these vessels had only 60 t of oil left in their bunkers after the end of the operation.
Also according to the source mentioned above eight air attacks were recognized between 06.45 and 07.15. The most dangerous one took place around 07.00 against LE TRIOMPHANT, when a near miss about 20 m abeam of the after funnel caused some strong vibrations. This near miss was most probably the reason, why strong vibrations of the portside shaft were observed later. Therefor it was necessary to send the ship back to France for repairs and it was not longer available for another planned high speed raid.
Two more, less effective air attacks were finally mentioned on the afternoon against L´INDOMPTABLE.
Hallo Urs,
Zitat
Zitat von: JensA am Heute um 16:34:26
Can you remember which article?
Vielen Dank, und auch Gedanke an "Google Translate"!
mfg.
Jens
Barthe's report in ADM 1/10541 in French.
Jens
And the English translation:
And the track chart.
Jens
... sehr schön, besten Dank für´s Zeigen! top
Hello CAM and Igor,
On: http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9124
you mention 5 Do 17 from KG 3 with a refence to F.d.L. West.
I made a transcription of the KTB of F.d.L. West from 24th April 1940 in Freiburg, but I can't find any mentioning of Do 17's and Kampfgruppe 3 in it. - What is your source for that information?
Best regards
Jens
Zitat von: JensA am 18 April 2015, 16:34:26
Can you remember which article?
This is from an article S.V.Patyanina "Operation Weserübung."
http://militera.lib.ru/h/patyanin_sv/index.html
Hello CAM
Thanks a lot.
As far as I can see, the author doesn't give any specific references. Is that correct? (I don't read Russian, but have to use Google Translate, so some details may get lost in translation).
Jens :-)
The battle seen from the point of view of the Vorpostenboote:
RM 72/73
Kriegstagebuch der 7. Vorpostenflottille vom 7.4.-1.5.40.
24.4.
Längs der norwegischen Küste in 10 sm Abstand nach Quadrat 3625 marschiert. Navigieren infolge Fehlens jeder Feuer und starker Kompaßauschläge sehr erschwert. 0200 Uhr 706 und 703 zum Quadrat 3653 bis 3651 befehlsgemäß entlassen. Boote verschwinden schnell in der Nacht. See sehr ruhig heller Mondschein. Sichtweite 40 – 50 sm. Boote 702 und 709 gehen auf Horchfahrt mit Kurs rechtweisend 150o. In Richtung vor Kristiansand Stb. Achteraus gehorchte Geräusche werden dem Chef der 2. S.-Flottille gemeldet. Ab 0310 Uhr starke Geräusche in Rw. 80o aufgenommen. Geräusche werden immer lauter. Um 0355 Uhr auf Kurs 80o sichte ich Stb. Voraus Richtung 10o 3 Fahrzeuge, die sich mit hoher Fahrt nähern. Ich laufe mit A.K. darauf zu. Um 406 Uhr werden sie als feindliche Zerstörer erkannt und sofort gemeldet. Ich drehe langsam ab, als um 408 Uhr bereits die erste Salve fällt. Schon bei der 3. Salve durchschlägt ein Geschoss der als französische Torpedokreuzer vom Typ Fantasque festgestellten feindlichen Schiffe das Ruderhaus an Stb. und detoniert in Höhe des vorderen Mastes. Der nach vorn streuende Sprengkegel verwundet sofort die gesamte Geschützbedienung und sämtliche Munitionsmänner, davon 7 schwer. Das Geschütz, das gerade unter Befehl des Kommandanten den ersten Schuß feuern wollte, fiel aus. Ich gab sofort Befehl, den Nebelapparat anzustellen und versuchte, in die unmittelbar vor uns einschlagenden Salven hereinzudrehen, jedoch gehorchte das Schiff dem Ruder nicht mehr, da der Rudergänger durch den Luftdruck zu Boden geschleudert und die gesamte Brückenbeleuchtung ausgefallen war. Der Ausguckposten war über die Brücke an Deck geworfen worden. Das Schiffe drehte einmals hart Bb. Im Kreise und lag dabei unter schwerstem Feuer der etwa 20 hm. Entfernt vorbeilaufenden französischen Torpedokreuzer, die etwa Kurs Ssw. Steuerten. Es war deutlich in jeder Salve der 14 cm Granaten ein Leuchtspurgeschoss zu beobachten. Auch wurde mit kleinkalibrigen Flakgeschützen geschossen. Da die Lage aussichtslos erschien, gab ich dem Adjudanten den Befehl zur sofortigen Vernichtung sämtlicher Geheimsachen. Erst nach 7 Minuten kamen die Nebelapparate in Gang, deren Düsen durch die Säure angegriffen waren. Das Feuer steigerte sich so, dass etwa alle 6-8 Sekunden eine Salve unmittelbar neben dem Boot einschlug. Ich schickte den Kommandanten hinunter, um den zahlreichen Schwerverwundeten Morphium zu geben um an Deck die Störungen zu beseitigen. Nach etwa 40 Salven verschwand 702 im Nebel und Qualm und die Zerstörer wechselten das Ziel auf 709, das etwa auch mit 20 Salven belegt wurde. Treffer wurden auf 709 nicht erzielt. Die Ruhe der Besatzungsmitglieder und ihr Verhalten war trotz des Stöhens der zahlreichen Verwundeten hervorragend. Keiner war aufgeregt. Und alle Befehle wurden schnell und sicher ausgeführt. Die in dem dunkelnden Funkraum arbeitendem Funker gaben sämtliche Funksprüche in wenigen Minuten richtig ab. Um 0438 Uhr hörte das Geschützfeuer auf und die Boote 706 und 709 liefen mit Höchstfahrt, Kurs Rw. 10o, auf die Küste zu. Die 10 sm weiter im Süden stehenden Boote 706 und 703 haben den Feind nicht gesehen um 0545 Uhr 709 längsseite zur Abgabe des Flottillenarztes. Bis dahin hatte Strm.Mt. Brink (Fischdampfersteuermann) die Verwundeten betreut und herausragende Splitter mit Kneifzange entfernt. Das vorhandene Verbandsmaterial reichte kaum zum verbinden von 3 Verwundeten. Das Vordeck war mit Blut und Splitter bedeckt und durch den Granateninhalt teilweise gelb gefärbt. Zerstört ist das Bb. Heizereinrichtung. Hervorzuheben ist, daß das Geschoß trotz Aufschlagens auf ein starkes T.-Eisen im Ruderhaus erst 15 m weiter in Höhe des vorderen Mastes detonierte. Um 1425 Uhr machte das Boot in Larvik fest die schwerverwundeten wurden sofort unter tatkräftiger Mithilfe des Marineortskommandanten ins Krankenhaus Larvik eingeliefert.
Ausgeschift wurden:
1. Ob.Btsmt. Lahr
2. Mtr. Akkert
3. Mtr. Hülser
4. Sign.Gefr. Schmidt
5. Fk.Gefr. Ebert
6. Mtr. (IV FK) Stellmacher
7. Masch.Hpt.Gefr. Robus.
Zitat von: JensA am 18 April 2015, 18:56:13
Hello CAM
Thanks a lot.
As far as I can see, the author doesn't give any specific references. Is that correct? (I don't read Russian, but have to use Google Translate, so some details may get lost in translation).
Jens :-)
Вскоре по приказу FdLuft «Вест» взлетели бомбардировщики. По непонятной причине задачу поручили
Do-17 из состава KG 3, лишенным какого-либо опыта действий против морских целей. Около 07:45 они настигли уходившего полным ходом противника, но не смогли точно сбросить бомбы.
Zitat von: Peter K. am 18 April 2015, 17:47:40
Jean LASSAQUE
Les CT de 2800 tonnes du type Le Fantasque
The French have a description of the battle:
Extrait du livre de Paul Carré Le Fantasque - L'odyssée de la 10e DCL chez Marines édition, Dépôt légal novembre 1996, pages 104-105.
23-24 avril 1940
« Elle [la 8-ème DCT] appareille dans la soirée [du 16 avril 1940] pour aller se faire démagnétiser à Cherbourg. Les bâtiments en repartiront le 20 pour Rosyth. Ils quitteront ce port le 23 à 5 h00 pour exécuter l'opération la nuit suivante après avoir traversé la mer du Nord.
La 8ème DCT a pour mission d'attaquer tout bâtiment de surface rencontré et de se retirer au plus tard à 3 h00 le 24. Elle atteint la côte norvégienne à 21 h 40 et met à 34 nœuds à 1 h 40 le 24. Les patrouilleurs allemands V 703, V 706, V 702 et V 709 sont à la mer, amatelotés deux par deux. A 3 h 10 dans le 107 du feu de Groningen, le Triomphant aperçoit à 6400 m un petit bâtiment en route à l'Est et ouvre le feu. Le chef de la flotille 702/709 raconte :
A partir de 2 h 10 (heures G.M.T.) bruits amplifiés dans le 80. A 2 h 55, cap au 80, j'aperçois à tribord avant trois vaisseaux qui s'approchent à vive allure. Je vais en avant toute dans cette direction. A 3 h 06 ils sont identifiés comme destroyers ennemis et aussitôt signalés. Je change lentement de cap. A 3 h 08 la première salve est tirée. Dès la 3è, un obus du navire identifié comme étant un contre-torpilleur français du type Fantasque, traverse la timonerie à tribord et explose à hauteur du mât avant. Le cône d'éclatement blesse sur son parcours tous les servants des pièces et les pourvoyeurs en munitions dont sept grièvement. Je donnai ausitôt l'ordre de déclencher le fumigène et essayai de virer de bord au milieu des salves, mais le navire n'obéissait plus au gouvernail, le timonier ayant été jeté à terre par le souffle et l'éclairage étant tombé en panne... Le bateau amorce un virage brutal sur bâbord s'exposant au feu nourri des CT distants de quelque 3 milles, faisant route au S.S.-O...
On distingue les balles traçantes et les départs de salves. La situation paraissant sans issue, j'ordonne la destruction immédiate des documents... Le feu ennemi s'intensifie tellement qu'une salve tombe toutes les 6 à 8 secondes. Je fais distribuer de la morphine aux blessés et déblayer le pont. Après avoir essuyé quelques 40 salves, le 702 disparaît dans le brouillard et la fumée et l'ennemi prend le 709 pour cible.
A 3 h 26, l'Indomptable voit une vedette à bâbord, dans l'azimut de la lune. Il fait venir la division sur la gauche pour éviter les torpilles dont les sillages sont visibles. l'Indomptable et le Triomphant tirent sur la vedette qui est vue brûlant et coulant.
A 30 h 30 le Malin ouvre le feu sur une autre vedette qu'il voit couler. A 3 h 32, deux sillages de torpilles passent sur l'arrière du Triomphant qui croit apercevoir à 5000 m sur tribord un sous-marin en plongée, mais il est interdit d'attaquer les sous-marins dans ce secteur où se trouvent des Britanniques.
Après les engagements, la 8e DCT poursuit sa route au S.O. à 36 nœuds. A 4 h00, le Malin a une avarie de turbo-ventilateur de chauffe qui oblige à réduire la vitesse à 30 nœuds. A partir de 6 h 14, les bâtiments sont attaqués à quatre reprises par l'aviation allemande. Les bombes tombées à proximité du Triomphant endommagent l'arbre d'hélice bâbord de ce bâtiment. On s'en apercevra à l'arrivée à Rosyth. Il entrera en réparations à son retour en France. »
Zitat von: JensA am 18 April 2015, 18:41:21
Hello CAM and Igor,
On: http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9124
you mention 5 Do 17 from KG 3 with a refence to F.d.L. West.
I made a transcription of the KTB of F.d.L. West from 24th April 1940 in Freiburg, but I can't find any mentioning of Do 17's and Kampfgruppe 3 in it. - What is your source for that information?
Hello Jens!
My posting about plane's type is from KTB MNG West, T1022R4280, page 971. Most upper string says about start of 5 Do.17, but say nothing about geschwader. They was from FdL Ost, not West (same document, previous page, last string).
From context is looks like they was from some Aufklarungsstaffel. MNG West wrote, they starts for recon of east part of Skagerrak, not for attack.
Zitat von: JensA am 18 April 2015, 18:56:13
As far as I can see, the author doesn't give any specific references. Is that correct?
This was taken from some english- or polish-language book or magazine.
ZitatMy posting about plane's type is from KTB MNG West, T1022R4280, page 971. Most upper string says about start of 5 Do.17, but say nothing about geschwader. They was from FdL Ost, not West (same document, previous page, last string).
From context is looks like they was from some Aufklarungsstaffel. MNG West wrote, they starts for recon of east part of Skagerrak, not for attack.
Thank you very much. I found the lines in my transcripts.
You are right it doesn't state KG 3, and it is reconnaisance.
Do 17's were sent out from Gruppe 606, but at 2120 the Gruppe reported to F.d.L. Ost: "Keine Feindstreit gesichtet" [KTB F.d.L.Ost]. So they can't have bombed the French destroyers. And the destoryers would also at that time have been out of the operations area of F.d.L. Ost.
So, is it a misreading from the side of the original author, or was KG 3 really involved???
As mentioned earlier an involvment of KG 3 would explain why X. Fliegerkorps didn't mention the attack in it's reports. Unfortunately, it seems that there isn't much literature on KG 3 - and I suppose also few archival sources on.
Best regards
Jens
According to http://www.ww2.dk/ all groups of KG 3 based deep in southern Germany on April 1940. I doubt they was sent to Skagerrak from Wurtzburg.
Well, if that is correct, it wouldn't be the first unit you would choose for hunting destroyers in the North Sea. :?
Jens
Some of the Do 17's sent up that morning by F.d.L. Ost came fra 3./Küstenfliegergruppe
- could "3 KG" simply be a misunderstanding/misreading???
:?
Jens
hi, Jens,
I can't answer that one, but, from my own experience with KTB, it would be a very plausible hypothesis, indeed.
greetings, Urs
Hi, Jens.
If there are no documents about the attacks of the French ships aircraft KG 3, this information can be considered a mistake the author of that article.
Zitat von: JensA am 19 April 2015, 09:27:58
Some of the Do 17's sent up that morning by F.d.L. Ost came fra 3./Küstenfliegergruppe
- could "3 KG" simply be a misunderstanding/misreading???
:?
Jens
Yes! Easy. We have here multiple translation (german-english-polish-russian), any wonder may occur with termins.
Hi Jens.
Thank you for reporting. This is very valuable information. I saw that Bartes report did not write any damage received MALIN and TRIОMFANT.
There was another raid the French ships in the Skagerrak!
Large French destroyers CHEVALIER PAUL, MILAN, TARTU (Cdr J. H.Ruck-Keene, British liaison officer embarked) and destroyers SIKH and TARTAR departed Scapa Flow for a raid into the Skagerrak to intercept two German merchant ships escorted by two torpedo boats in 58‑45N, 04‑48E at 2200/3rd.
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4005-14MAY01.htm
What about him?
hi, cam,
more or less: nothing (as quite often in naval warfare)
The next sentence reads :
The sortie was without contact and the ships returned undamaged at 0930/4th.
That's it ... waste of fuel :wink:
greetings, Urs
If the position is correct, 58‑45N, 04‑48E, it is actually not "into the Skagerrak".
The western border of the Skagerrak is defined by a line between Lindeness/N and Hanstholm/DK.
Jens
Thank you. Good answer.