Kämpfe im Skagerrak.

[igor]

KTB Minensch. COBRA:
04.20-04.40 furious gunfire. 7 V-Fl. reported about fighting with 3 DD of COSSACK class, then 2 S-boote - about 3 DD of FANTASQUE class.
06.45 minelayers arrived in Kristiansand-Sud.
From KTB of MGK West:
Message of some unknow source "auf Vk.III" (dunno what is this, a waveband's name?) timegroup 04.15: enemy DD breack thru Qu. 3625 (20 sea miles WSW Kristiansand-Sud).
Then two radiomessages from 7. V-Fl: 04.20 - been in fight with enemy DD's and 04.25 - need help immidiately, have been hit. Signals about fight were retranslated on variuos wavebands, in order to notify minelayers and 2 fisching trawlers (Fischdamrfer 26 and 37). At first there was doubts, if V-boote miv up "unknow DD" with minelayer's escort, and which course enemy was headed. From first message cours appear to be East, but later this assumption proved wrong. Because of hesitant fight with very weak opposition, MGK Weat supposed, that enemy has mines on board.
Immidiately request for air support was sent to FdLuft, they can send only 5 Do.17. Secondly X. Fliegercorps was informed and quickly answered, that one Kette would be send against enemy ships.
05.35 r/message from 7 V.-Fl: was engaged with 3 DD of COSSACK class, one gun knocked out, have WIA on board.
05.40 all was announced about start of recon plane and Kampfflugzeuge.
Only at 05.45 7 V-Fl reported their position: 3622 r.u. (10 miles SE Lillesund).
07.00 r/message from 6 T-Fl about S-boote's report. They reported 3 Fantasque's in Qu. 3625, heading SW, high speed.
09.09: B-dienst intersepted enemy report about bomber's attack in pos. 57.20 - 04.00 (Qu. AN4699). At once 6 T-Fl reported, that it was bombed by german planes near Kristiansan-Sud entrance.
Later recon plane of FdLuft send message about 3 DD's on 08.45, course 270, 25 kn, AN3582 (30 miles SSW Lindenes)
11.30 - r/message from 7 V-Fl timegroup 08.03. Qu. 3625 DD, course SSW, high speed, 2 funnels far one from another, clipper bow, made 40 salvoes on V-boote.
13.30 recon plane, which held contact, reported that he aim bombers on enemy force. Immediately B-dienst intercepted new enemy's report about bombing.

[cam]

2 fisching trawlers (Fischdamrfer 26 and 37)

French write about the V-703 and V-706.

[igor]

I think it was SCHIFF 26 J. PICKENBACK and SCHIFF 37 SCHLESWIG.

[cam]

I think it was SCHIFF 26 J. PICKENBACK and SCHIFF 37 SCHLESWIG.

With this information
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/weseruebung/ausgabe.php?where_value=137
it is not clear when these ships came in his last campaign. Where they could be in the morning of  24.04?

[igor]

All clear now. I scan KTB MNG West rearwards and find one message. It says that some TMB-mines would be send to Tronheim on trawlers 26 and 37. They was sheduled to go to Norvay on 23.04. So really, this was SCHIFFE 26 and 37, as i suppose.

[JensA]

"French writing that boats fired torpedoes that they have seen and avoided. Boats were fired from all guns and destroyed. The speed of the French on their description was about 40 knots. They write that their boat was attacked in 03.26 hours."

You should alway be very cautious to believe battle reports, as things often look very different from the other side.
The French also claimed to have fired at a submarine, but I have found no report on submarine being fired at, neither German nor British.

I don't think the MTB's fired any torpedoes - that is at least how I understand the following text from KTB des Marinegruppenkommando West 1.-30.4.40
26.4.40:
   "Chef 2. S-Flottille Korv.Kapt. Petersen meldet sich bei Gruppe und berichtet unter anderem über die Gefechstberührung von ,,S 10" und ,,S 12" mit den drei französischen Zerstörern am Morgen des 24.4. Die Zerstörer wurden mit westlichem Kurs, hoher Fahrt laufend gesichtet und standen günstig zum Angriff zwischen beiden S-Booten. ,,S 10" gelang es, bei Lage 80o bis auf 3000 m heranzukommen, als die Zerstörer mit höchster Fahrt – vom Flottillenchef auf 35 – 37 sm – geschätzt – nach Süd auf ,,S 12" abdrehten und das Feuer auf das Boot eröffneten. Kurz darauf liefen die Zerstörer dann mit höchster Fahrt (etwa 35 sm) also wahrscheinlich ohne Minenschutz, über das Sperrstück I unserer Skagerraksperre nach Westen ab.
Ausfälle oder Beschädigungen sind auf ,,S 12" nicht eingetreten."

Jens

[JensA]

I think it was SCHIFF 26 J. PICKENBACK and SCHIFF 37 SCHLESWIG.

Die beiden Schiffen operienten als U-Bootsfallen in Skagerrak/Kattegat April 1940. Sie waren aber nicht in diese Gefecht involviert. Sie wurden wieder zur Vfg. B.S.N. entlassen.

Aus dem Gefechtsbericht und obenzitiere KTB "Corba" geht es deutlich vor, dass  es sich um Vp.Bt. 702 und 709 handelte.

mfg.
Jens

[JensA]

They were surely faster in any seastate (S 10 and S 12 were older boats, too), but 45 knots was the French super-destroyers' "trial speed" and unattainable with full load of fuel and ammunition.
We discussed that difference (for other ships, too) here in FMA several times and quite intensely.

Yes, they were really fast.
14 hours at 25-27 knots, 11 hour at 30 knots and 10 hours at 34-36 knots!

I can't think of any other vessels that could have made the same speed for so long. And that was also why they were chosen for that mission.

And even so, they didn't get as far East as planned before the captain chose to return. The idea was to get into the routes to Norway and to sink German sub chasers.

Regards
Jens

[cam]

I don't think the MTB's fired any torpedoes - that is at least how I understand the following text from KTB des Marinegruppenkommando West 1.-30.4.40
26.4.40:

Thank you very much. This is very useful information.   

Is there any information as torpedoboats accompanied minelaers Roland and Cobra on 23-24.04.1940 transition?

[t-geronimo]

According to war diary Cobra the ships were escorted by five torpedo boats of 6th torpedo boat flottilla.
But it is not said if only for depature or for the whole way.

[cam]

Thank you.

And we know what connections Luftwaffe aircraft participated in the attacks on the French ships?

[igor]

Die beiden Schiffen operienten als U-Bootsfallen in Skagerrak/Kattegat April 1940. Sie waren aber nicht in diese Gefecht involviert. Sie wurden wieder zur Vfg. B.S.N. entlassen.
Aus dem Gefechtsbericht und obenzitiere KTB "Corba" geht es deutlich vor, dass  es sich um Vp.Bt. 702 und 709 handelte.

V.702 und 709 waren beide boote in Gefecht mit Franzosische Zerstorern. Aber meine post ist antwort fur CAM's frage uber "fischerdampfern 26 und 37", genannten in KTB MNG West. Das waren SCHIFFE 26 (PICKENBACK) und 37 (SCHWABEN).

[igor]

You should alway be very cautious to believe battle reports, as things often look very different from the other side.

Yes i agree with all these words!

[JensA]

And we know what connections Luftwaffe aircraft participated in the attacks on the French ships?

No, there is a little mystery there.

The destroyers came under aerial attack on two occasions :
1.) 7.45-8.30: from 6-9 Junkers-planes according to the French statements. I haven't been able to identify them, but they must have come fra Luftwaffe, as nothing is mentioned about it the KTBs of Führer der Luft Ost or West.
2.) 13.00-14.45: four Heinkel He 111 from 2. and 3./K.Fl.Gruppe 806, Üttersen.

There is even more drama to it. At 8.46 the escorting battle flight of three Hudsons (220 Sqn) was attacked by two Me 109's (4./Jagdgeschwader 77, Kristiansand) and two of them were shot down.

Jens

[Urs Heßling]

hi,

According to war diary Cobra the ships were escorted by five torpedo boats of 6th torpedo boat flottilla. But it is not said if only for depature or for the whole way.

According to Rohwer's "Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945", the five-TB-escort of 6th TB flottilla operated with Cobra one night later, April 24/25, during minelaying ops.
It is not mentioned explicitly whether they covered Cobra and Roland already during the transit from Wilhelmshaven to Kristiansand.

greetings, Urs