ASA-Datensatz: 19402 DZIK

[TW]

Folgende E-Mails poste ich hier mit Erlaubnis der Beteiligten. Vielen Dank, Thomas

Dear Andrzej.
On 19/07/43, 0620, ORP DZIK attacked near Malta with 4 torpedoes (position 35°48'N 15°17'E) an enemy submarine which was trying to sink the british submarine HMS UNSHAKEN. -- Which enemy submarine was attacked by DZIK?

The position 35°48'N 15°17'E is to the east of Malta, and lies on the border of the Kriegsmarine grid squares CN3576 and CN3579. We don't know of any uboat that tried to attack (or attacked) a british sub on 19/07/43.

ASA-book (Jürgen Rohwer: Allied submarine attacks of World War Two)
provides no further details for the attack by ORP DZIK but implies that DZIK attacked UNSHAKEN, not an enemy submarine...

Over to the KTB's of the 4 german suspects. Must mention here that it was my collegue Frans Beckers who checked the KTB's of the aforementioned boats for clues.

U81 at 0400 on 19/07/43 was sailing submerged in position CN3619. At 0723 she surfaced. At 0800 she was in position CN3615. At 0910 she submerged (alarm dive for an aircraft) again till 1016 when she re-surfaced and spotted an escorted battleship. At 1100 U81 plans an attack on a destroyer with a french flag. At 1121 she misses with 4 torpedos and is in turn attacked with depth charges.
The KTB goes on, but it is clear that U81 in the morning hours of 19/07/43 did not try to attack HMS UNSHAKEN, nor did she mention being attacked by an Allied sub. And between 0400 and 0723 she sailed submerged.  --  We don't believe U81 to be the enemy submarine attacked by DZIK.

U407 dived at 0255 on 19/07/43 in CN3515 (she detected aircraft emissions) to re-surface at 0340. She submerged again at 0359 (detection of aircraft emissions) to re-surface only at 2111. No mention of an attack on or by an Allied submarine.
Moreover U407 had touched bottom on 12/07/43 and damaged the doors to the torpedo tubes III and IV which no longer could be opened fully. It would be astonishing if her CO tried to attack a sub with only 2 tubes operational.

U453 was in position CN2938 at 0400 on 19/07/43. At 0420 she surfaced and at 0426 she set off a radio message that she was returning to base because she had no more torpedos left. After sending of the message she submerged once more at 0445 till 2100 when she re-surfaced. No mention of an attack on or by an Allied submarine. That leaves us only with U375 as remaining 'possible' culprit.

U375 did not return from its patrol (she was sunk 30/07/43), so there is no KTB written up by her CO. - There are a few things we know about U375. On 18/07/43 at about 0800 she stood in CN34, and at 2350 that same day she attacked an east going convoy in CN31. The move from CN34 to CN31 during the day means that U375 had mainly sailed a northerly course during 18/07/43. On the morning of 19/07/43 she was estimated to still be in (or near) CN31 and she would remain thereabout till at least 20/07/43. It therefor appears unlikely that U375 was the enemy sub attacked on 19/07/43 at 0620 in CN35, a position well east of Malta.

Conclusion: We can not identify a german uboat that could have been seen and attacked by ORP DZIK that 19/07/43 morning, or that tried to sink an Allied sub (Unshaken).
When (not "if") DZIK attacked a submarine, then it therefor seems probable that it was an italian boat (for which we alas have no data) or ... that she in error indeed attacked HMS UNSHAKEN (cf.ASA).

If you should possess information proving it wasn't UNSHAKEN she attacked, then you might send same to Thomas Weis for him to correct ASA (Allied Submarine Attacks) in the HMA. We look forward to reading your comments on the above.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Walter

[TW]

Dear Walter and Frans,
thank you for your reply. As usual outstanding!

I have a report by Jack Whitton (UNSHAKEN's CO) in which it is clearly stated that DZIK have not attacked his boat.

Whitton also stated that during July 18th UNSHAKEN have exchanged signals on surface with unknown submarine (even fired upon it a few salvos from the deck gun which forced enemy submarine do submerge) which was presumably German VIIC U-boat.

All the best,
Andrzej

[TW]

Dear Andrzej, dear Walter.
I am mostly interested in your considerations concerning attack of DZIK on 19 July 1943 on unidentified submarine.
I did not know that DZIK pretended an attack on "an enemy submarine which was trying to sink the british submarine HMS UNSHAKEN". ASA-book simply stated an attack on HMS UNSHAKEN.
From the reflections of Frans and Walter I would prefer to put an attack against U81 into consideration.

Four questions or remarks from my point of view:
1) When (at which time) did UNSHAKEN enter Malta ?
2) I do not find it realistic, that DZIK was able to observe preparations of a submerged uboat for an attack on another submarine.
3) I find most interesting, that DZIK attacked at 6h20 and U81 surfaced at 7u23. In which timezone operated DZIK: GMT or MET? (= Britische oder Mitteleuropäische Zeit?)
4) Failed attacks on submarines were oftenly not perceived by the attacked crews.

Would you, please, allow me to publish your considerations in "Forum Marinearchiv"?
With best regards
Thomas

[TW]

Dear Gentlemen
Take this from DZIK's war diary:
17 VII 43 02.45 received signal calling off from the patrol
18 VII 43 21.56 met with UNSHAKEN
19 VII 43 06.20 attacked enemy submarine with 4 torpedoes, UNSHAKEN was placed 3000 yards on starboard bow and 1000 yards ahead. Sighted periscope 40 degrees to port distance 1000 yards. Altered course towards, gave full speed ahead, and fired. Periscope disappeared after second torpedo left the tube.
At 11.50 DZIK berthed in Lazaretto.
Andrzej

[TW]

2016-01-04 23:23 GMT+01:00 Andrzej
Adding Thomas as well.

Good evening Gentleman,
the document in question is from IWM - collection of private papers of late lt cdr Jack Whitton ( http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030001173 ). Whitton write as follows about July encounter (this is only excerpt):

• In a first radio message UNSHAKEN and DZIK had been "forgotten" by calling submarines back from their patrol off Taranto.
• Then second signal came: "UNSHAKEN and DZIK return by the reverse of their outward route. Proceeding dived by day, surface by night, due South to a point 200 nm East of Malta then due West, proceeding on the surface by day and night to the submarine sanctuary off Malta to randez-vous with escort 08.00 19th July 1943"
• In the morning of 18th July "It must have been just after 8 o'clock when [...] a submarine in sight bearing 175°"; "it was the upper half of a submarine conning tower with the hull down over the horizon some 8 nm to the south of us"; "it could be DZIK, after all we were expecting to see DZIK, on the other hand without being able to see its deck line it could be German or Italian"

Then there is following story of 2 signal challenges with both replies being unintelligible:

• "About mid-day, to break the monotony, a few questions were passed, 'What ship?', 'What is your name?' all of which produced no positive identification. [...] To our 3 star challenge, he after a pause sent up one correct color of the reply but there was no sign of the other two colors. This was a bit fishy, however nothing much could be done about it. My suspicions were, although not wholly convinced that we were in company with an enemy submarine, who like us could not do much about it at the moment."
• "the effective max range of the gun [...] was possibly 8000-9000 yards at the most compared with his estimated range of about 16000 yards. [...] Turning directly towards him and increasing speed to emergency full speed, stopping the zig-zag and going straight for him - after about 5 min 3 rounds of HE were fired all of which sent up nice big splashes well short."
• Enemy submarine dived. "This submarine (whoever he was) appeared to know where we were going giving credit to the enemy's intelligence he might even know the location the submarine sanctuary"
• then UNSHAKEN turned 270° at full speed, enemy sub surfaced about 7 nm away and set the same course and the chase went on.
• "Around 15.00 in the afternoon the bearing gradually began to draw ahead from 165° to 170° and half an hour later it had moved past 190° to 200°. That was conclusive the submarine we had in sight was NOT DZIK [...] our 'friend' was no doubt a German Type VIIC U-boat and it was rapidly moving into a position of advantage still well out of range for any action either of us could take."
• "About 30 to 40 min after sunset I could safely say that the enemy was still on the surface but only a speck in the last of the dusk, and that he was just about ot lose sight of me"
• UNSHAKEN dived and went for silent speed and sailed away

This is description of a meeting with enemy submarine. As you may see UNSHAKEN have to be sighted since there was exchange of signals between the two.

• After meeting with DZIK (as provided in the signal) UNSHAKEN signalled "I have been shadowed by a German sub since 08.30 this morning which was last seen at 19.40 on the surface, heading West, about 35 nm bearing 310° from here, he no doubt know my intentions and possibly the location of our sanctuary".
• Around 07.30 message from DZIK was received "I have fired four torpedoes at a periscope sighted ahead of me on an attack track for you". [...] DZIK was on the same course, six cable away about 20 degrees abaft my port beam. [...] We could see no sign of a periscope - the surprise of DZIK's fish must have sent the stranger deep - the fish certainly had not hit"

       
So as you may see DZIK could not have attacked UNSHAKEN (if he would I assume it's CO would wrote about it in private documents!).

There is an additional handwritten information (I doubt it was made by Whitton, Andrzej):

• "The U-boat sighted on 18th July was the German Type VIIc U-boat U.81 commanded by OLTzS Johann Krieg. From his war diary he was convinced I was an Italian, his report conflicts with my timing of diving and signalling".

Uhhh that was long.
Hope it helps!!
Andrzej

[TW]

the document in question is from IWM - collection of private papers of late lt cdr Jack Whitton ( http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030001173 ).

Und das alles - selbst der Angriff auf ein feindliches U-Boot - steht nicht im Logbuch von HMS Unshaken, sondern nur in den privaten Erinnerungen ?? Das ist ja kaum zu glauben.
Gruß, Thomas

P.S. U81 meldet keine Begegnung mit einem Feindboot und beobachtet erst recht keinen (Überwasser-)Angriff.
Trotz meiner Zweifel habe ich einen Datensatz mit dem Angriff von UNSHAKEN auf (vermeintlich) U81 angelegt:
http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=3967

[Darius]

Hallo Thomas,

leider konnte ich heute nicht bei Dir im Archiv vorbeischauen.

Ich habe aber gerade im Admirality War Diary nach den Aktivitäten zum 18./19.07.1943 geschaut.

UNSHAKEN
My position 035°58'N. 017°05'E Unidentified S/M bearing 270° 10 miles course 275° speed 12 knots.
(P.54 (UNSHAKEN) 182000B to Capt. (S) 10, (R) P.52 (DZIK)).

Am 19.07. ist eine Aufstellung über die aktuell festgestellten feindlichen U-Boote genannt:

Estmated U-Boat dispositions.
U-Boats (Italian): Sightings indicate at least 4 off the East Coast of Sicily. One in the close vicinity of (?Malta). About two between 013°E. and 015°E. off South Sicily Coast. One in the Tripoli area.
Some three or four off the Tunisian Coast between 006°E and 010° East.

U-Boats (German): One reported by day Cherchell 181910. Two unlocated in Sicilian waters.
(C.in C. Med. (A) 191708B to S. & A. in Area 9.)

Darius

[TW]

Am 05.01.2016 um 16:53 schrieb Walter Cloots (Arantales)

Andrzej, Thomas,

Our initial « investigation » was based solely on the information : “On 19 VII 1943 at 06.20 DZIK attacked near Malta with 4 torpedoes (position 35°48’ N / 15°17’ E) enemy submarine which was trying to sink British submarine UNSHAKEN.”.

Now, a lot more information is provided and it is known the story already commenced July 18. Enough additional information to review our previous point of view.

The KTB for U81 reads (Frans let me know this info during the day):

18/7/43
-1050 - CO1484 : In rw.30° U-Boot in Sicht. E.S.-Austauch versucht, nicht gelungen. Sieht wie Italiener aus. Morseverkehr, ohne Erfolg. Keiner läßt den anderen herankommen. Richtiges Katz-und Mausspiel.
-1128 - CO1487 : Alarm vor Flugzeug im Süden.
-1613 : Aufgetaucht.
-1730 - CO1474 : In rw.30° auftauchendes U-Boot. Das Spiel von heute Morgen geht weiter. Nach gegenseitigen Fragen "what ship" mit 2 Mal HF und 300° abgelaufen. Das andere Boot bleibt zurück.
-1900 - U-Boot achteraus außer Sicht. E.S. auf etwa 10000m Entfernung ist mit Scheinwerfer kaum möglich; die Antwort war ANTON, was dauernd gegeben wurde, jedoch ohne die 5 langen Striche. Es wird trotzdem angenommen daß es sich um ein italienisches Boot handelt. Größe etwa 750-1000 Tonnen. Geschütz freistehend weit vorn. Brücke wie deutsche, hinten abgeschnitten.

19/7/43
-1121 - CN3611 - Angriff mit 4-er Fächer auf Großzerstörer.
-1135 - Fehlschuß.../... Auf Sehrohrtiefe 3 starke Detonationen in der Nähe. Im Sehrohr nichts zu sehen, keine Sprengwolke. Vermutlich Flibos von über Zerstörer fliegende Flugzeug. .../...

The encounter of HMS/M UNSHAKEN on 18/07/1943 therefore indeed seems convincingly to have been with U81, which also makes her the prime suspect as the victim of ORP DZIK’s attack at 0620 on July 19th.
   But U81 did not spot/hear/see any of the 4 torpedoes fired at her … unless the 3 detonations she lists in her KTB to have heard on 19/07/1943 after 1135 were no aircraft bombs at all (she wasn’t sure but thought them to be aircraft bombs) but perhaps end-of-run detonations of torpedoes fired by DZIK.
   The timing in U81’s KTB is then way off from the timing in DZIK’s war diary!
   There is no mention in U81’s KTB that she intended to attack the submarine (i.e. HMS/M UNSHAKEN) she did see July 18th . Why should she when she supposed it to be an italian submarine?

An interesting exercise, which to me proves it best to have as much information as possible when trying to solve riddles.

I look forward to reading your ideas.
Kind regards,
Walter

[TW]

Ich habe gerade im Admirality War Diary nach den Aktivitäten zum 18./19.07.1943 geschaut.

UNSHAKEN
My position 035°58'N. 017°05'E Unidentified S/M bearing 270° 10 miles course 275° speed 12 knots.
(P.54 (UNSHAKEN) 182000B to Capt. (S) 10, (R) P.52 (DZIK)).

Danke Darius.
Leider fehlt eine Uhrzeitangabe. Im übrigen ist auch im KTB der Admiralität von einem Angriff mit MG oder Flakgeschütz (HE) nicht die Rede.

Vielen Dank auch Dir, Walter.
Mit den Ausführungen von Walter stimme ich voll überein. Die Begegnung mit dem (scheinbar italienischen, in der Tat britischen) Boot fehlt bisher in "duikboot".

Viele Grüße
Thomas

http://www.historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/asa/ausgabe.php?where_value=3967

[ARANTALES]

Hallo Thomas, Andrzej,

Richtig, die Begegnung mit dem (scheinbar italienischen, in der Tat britischen) Boot fehlt bisher in "duikboot". Wird korrigiert. Auch der Angriff von DZIK gehört hinein, auch wenn U81 nichts vom Angriff merkte.
Ist etwas für den nächsten Update von "DUIKBOOT", wahrscheinlich später dieses Monats.


Andrzej sei vor allem Dank um diese nicht bzw. falsch dokumentierte Geschichte ans Licht zu bringen. Danke!

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Frans & Walter

[TW]

Andrzej ist der Ansicht, dass DZIK am Morgen des 19.7.1943 nicht, wie es selber annahm, auf das U-Boot, das UNSHAKEN verfolgte (also U81), feuerte, sondern auf ein "non sub target". Zwischen der Position von DZIK (die entspricht dem Quadrat CN 3576) und der Position von U81 (CN 3619) lagen zum Zeitpunkt des Angriffs circa 70 Seemeilen Entfernung.

Viele Grüße von Andrzej.