Panzerschiff "Study 5"

[Jefgte]

In the years 1980', I design about 23 different Panzerschiffes
Some of this designs are little crazy but some other are interresting.
The absolute reference for all of these studies was the Graf Spee (Study 1)

In 2005, I SpringSharped much of these designs with adjustements, and I built some of them.

Built from January to may 2006, here is my "Panzerschiff-Study 5".


This is a Panzerschiff (Kreuzer) with a powerfull secondary battery (4T2x203) in original position.


Germany pocket battlecruiser laid down 1931

Displacement:
   11 569 t light; 12 245 t standard; 14 087 t normal; 15 560 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   587.28 ft / 574.15 ft x 74.80 ft x 23.48 ft (normal load)
   180.66 m / 175.00 m x 22.80 m  x 7.16 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1931 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 255.24lbs / 115.77kg shells, 1931 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      18 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6 158 lbs / 2 793 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   416.67 ft / 127.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   104.99 ft / 32.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     52.49 ft / 16.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   416.67 ft / 127.00 m   20.18 ft / 6.15 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.72" / 140 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      4.72" / 120 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.24" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 55 084 shp / 41 093 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 12 000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 315 tons

Complement:
   646 - 840

Cost:
   £5.595 million / $22.379 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 770 tons, 5.5 %
   Armour: 3 136 tons, 22.3 %
      - Belts: 734 tons, 5.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 490 tons, 3.5 %
      - Armament: 677 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 176 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 59 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1 647 tons, 11.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 976 tons, 42.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 518 tons, 17.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18 848 lbs / 8 549 Kg = 28.1 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.68 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.96 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.53 ft / 3.21 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.74 ft / 7.54 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   21.46 ft / 6.54 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.46 ft / 6.54 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Stern:      14.44 ft / 4.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.77 ft / 5.42 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 28 332 Square feet or 2 632 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 705 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


The 1/700 WL model is with the Norway campaigne camouflage (spring 1940)

[toppertino]

Hello jefgte.

Geared drive, 4 shafts, 55 084 shp / 41 093 Kw = 27.00 kts

4 shafts?In a so narrow vessel?

mfg

[Jefgte]

Quote:
"4 shafts?In a so narrow vessel?"

With 2 shafts, a enemy shell can destroy half of the propellers so
my  battleships studies are always with 4 shafts to have a better imunity against enemy shells.


2 or 4 shafts made no changement in the SpringSharp overall (=1.00)


Jef

[toppertino]

@ jef

With 2 shafts, a enemy shell can destroy half of the propellers

Then you also have to build 2 rudders.Two rudders are better than one.

mfg

[harold]

First, a heartily Welcome Aboard, Jef! 

This special one of your studies I did not know yet - but let me have some words on it afterwards...

I think, the consequence and straightness of your work should be honoured with great interest in the details! So let me first have some questions:

Which are the strategic and tactical demands for this study n° 5 ?
Arguments for a split heavy artillery (range, rate of fire, logistics)?
Block coefficient 0.489 leads to a u-formed main section - cold you give sections for the turret frames?

And, what`s most interesting for me: What was it that made you start such a project of various alternatives (as I understand, at least 23 different vessels) on the Panzerschiffe? Tactical ideas, alternative scenarios, ...?
So please tell us more about the backgrounds of your work!

Ciao,
Harold

[Spee]

@jef,

tactical right or wrong, as study possible or not, your model looks pretty smart  !!

[Leutnant Werner]

I would be interested in the possible arcs of fire of the 8-inch-guns

Cheers
Lt.

[Huszar]

Directly fore and aft would be not possible, the heavy turrets are in way.

As I understand, one of each pair is superfireing. Good idea, but I am not sure, that fireing across the ship would be possible - or only like the early dreadnoughts with the wing-guns.
Broadside would be surely possible...

alex

[Jefgte]

Thanks for your comments and your interrest

Well,
As I can remember, the range of the Deutschland class is made for commerce raider, a great part of my studies are not raiders but "Washington Cruiser Killer" so I choose Atlantic range, 10.000nm at 14 or 15 kts.
The speed down to 27kts, enough to escape 1930 Battleships.
With these range and speed, armament and protection could be increase, higher than Deutschland class.

The job of my Panzerschiffes is to operate with Battleships (Linienschiffes), and engage Cruisers.

The 4T2x203 are side disposition and alternarte deck,
3T2 can fire each side, the uper parts are protected for opposite side firing.

---------------------------------------------

Here is the original design made in the 80'.




After SpringSharp adjustements, the design which I use for building 1/700 WL model
You have the arcs of the side turrets.




Jef

[torpedo mixer]

Dear Jefgte,

why can't the 8" guns not superfire it's neighbour ( and the lower one its higher 'buddy' at longer ranges ) ? The blast can be taken care of (sort of for 8" at least ...) , loading for the lower turret is only possible if it turns away to its side so that the guns can be dropped done to the loading elevation - not nice for the ROF but still better than nothing !

regards, TM


P.S. : you mention this ship to accompany battleships which are slower. Does that make sense ? Any enemy would use heavy forces against the battleships and you effectively tie your Panzerschiff to these slower ships - no tactical use of the higher speed and no real armor to talk about ...

[Jefgte]

Built different Panzerschiffes in 12245Tstd is a hard chalenge.

Choices are difficults...and all my Panzerschiffes studies are dreams
in the 80'.
I built her because I like the original disposition of the powerfull secondary battery, 4T2x203.
This Study 5 was a "Cruiser killer". Certainly a hard chalenge for Harwood a La Plata...


Jef

[Jefgte]

 :?Hmmm...
An other thing,

All my 23 studies are laid down in 1931
That mean that just the year 1931 must be considered for the political, strategical and tactical choice of these studies.
All evenements or history later must be ignored in these 1931 choices.

So, the good question is:
What made with this Panzerschiff (cruiser killer) during the war?


Jef

[Leutnant Werner]

Still, this is a quite capable "Kampfgruppe" (task force-)ship. And more capable of doing damage in overseas raider-like dispatches. Imagine Spee in the La Plata-battle with a battery like that. The outcome is clearly to foresee. On the other hand: If a ship like this would exist in - let´s say - 1935, there would be a counter-cruiser from France (not only the Dunkerques) and especially the United Kingdom. Especially the latter would have to overcome the blatant disqualification of all of her Washington-Treaty cruisers.

Cheers
Lt.

[Jefgte]

Here are new photos:

[Jefgte]

 

Before made a 3D study drawing, I made little adjustments...

Study 5 - 2T3x280+4T2x203, Germany pocket battlecruiser laid down 1931

Displacement:
   11 585 t light; 12 245 t standard; 13 809 t normal; 15 060 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   587.28 ft / 574.15 ft x 73.33 ft x 23.48 ft (normal load)
   179.00 m / 175.00 m x 22.35 m  x 7.16 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1931 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 255.24lbs / 115.77kg shells, 1931 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread, alternate deck disposition
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      18 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6 219 lbs / 2 821 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 106
   8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   415.03 ft / 126.50 m   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   104.99 ft / 32.00 m   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     54.13 ft / 16.50 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   415.03 ft / 126.50 m   23.46 ft / 7.15 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.69" / 170 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 53 486 shp / 39 901 Kw = 26.90 kts
   Range 12 000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 814 tons

Complement:
   636 - 827

Cost:
   £5.596 million / $22.383 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 777 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 3 237 tons, 23.4 %
      - Belts: 682 tons, 4.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 567 tons, 4.1 %
      - Armament: 716 tons, 5.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 214 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 59 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1 599 tons, 11.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 931 tons, 43.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 224 tons, 16.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18 177 lbs / 8 245 Kg = 27.1 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.96 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.53 ft / 3.21 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.74 ft / 7.54 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   21.78 ft / 6.64 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.46 ft / 6.54 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Stern:      14.44 ft / 4.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.87 ft / 5.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 27 773 Square feet or 2 580 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 707 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.52
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

-----------------
An other option with K kreuzer turrets

Study 5 - 2T3x280+4T3x150, Germany pocket battlecruiser laid down 1929

Displacement:
   11 279 t light; 11 890 t standard; 13 459 t normal; 14 715 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   587.28 ft / 574.15 ft x 71.52 ft x 23.46 ft (normal load)
   179.00 m / 175.00 m x 21.80 m  x 7.15 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (2x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1929 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1929 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread, alternate deck disposition
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1929 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1929 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5 352 lbs / 2 428 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   8 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   413.39 ft / 126.00 m   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
   Ends:   1.57" / 40 mm   131.23 ft / 40.00 m   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     29.53 ft / 9.00 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   23.46 ft / 7.15 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.69" / 170 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      4.92" / 125 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.57" / 40 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 5.51" / 140 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 56 000 shp / 41 776 Kw = 27.35 kts
   Range 12 000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 825 tons

Complement:
   624 - 812

Cost:
   £4.790 million / $19.160 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 669 tons, 5.0 %
   Armour: 3 201 tons, 23.8 %
      - Belts: 693 tons, 5.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 583 tons, 4.3 %
      - Armament: 674 tons, 5.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 184 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 67 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1 720 tons, 12.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 649 tons, 42.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 181 tons, 16.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17 975 lbs / 8 153 Kg = 26.8 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.03 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.96 kts
   Power going to wave formation at speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.53 ft / 3.21 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.74 ft / 7.54 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   21.78 ft / 6.64 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.46 ft / 6.54 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   13.45 ft / 4.10 m
      - Stern:      14.44 ft / 4.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.87 ft / 5.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 27 089 Square feet or 2 517 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 682 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.50
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


Jef