The mystery of Enigma Rotor VIII (U-13?)

[Platon Alexiades]

Some sources have indicated that Rotor VIII was "pinched" by the Royal Navy in August 1940. I have been unable to find any mention of German vessel warship boarded in that month. Perhaps I have missed something. I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion? I have been tempted to believe that the rotor was recovered by divers from the wreck of U-13 sunk on 31 May 1940 or perhaps found on one of the survivors such as happened with U-33 in February 1940. I would welcome comments.

Many thanks,

Platon

[TW]

Hi Platon,
I'm sorry but cannot help with that question.
Best regards, Thomas

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Thomas,

Thank you for trying. The mystery remains!

All the best,

Platon

[Darius]

crolick has a hint here:
http://warsailors.com/ships/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=365


Regards

Darius

[Strandurlauber]

Hello,

I haven't found any information to confirm your source yet. So far, I only know that the encryption process of the German Navy (a variant of Enigma-M3 with three out of eight cylinders (I to VIII) and a sophisticated message key agreement) was only used by the British in May 1941 after the capture of the German submarine U 110 and capture of an intact M3 machine and all secret documents (code books including the essential "double letter exchange tables") by the British destroyer HMS Bulldog on May 9, 1941.

PS: VIII was first used in the M3 from 1939 and later also in the M4 and the wiring was from ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ to FKQHTLXOCBJSPDZRAMEWNIUYGV.

Regards

Strandurlauber

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Strandurlauber,

Many thanks for your input and comments. The web site link provided by Darius on the warsailors forum is most interesting.

Although, at least one destroyer, Hans Lüdemann, was boarded after the second battle of Narvik, I have not found anywhere that secret documents were recovered from her. The code books recovered from the Q-ship Schiff 26 enabled the British to read Naval Enigma for a few days in April-May 1940 but there is no evidence that Rotor VIII was recovered at that time.

In 1939, the Poles had provided Rotors I to V. Two of the three Rotors recovered from U-33 in February 1940 were VI and VII so only VIII was missing. According to BP sources, Rotor VIII was recovered in August 1940. I am not sure the date is correct as I am unaware of any German vessel boarded at that time. I suspect that this may have occurred earlier. Candidates are U-13 sunk on 31 May 1940 (from which important documents were recovered although it is not clear if a Rotor was found) and U-26 sunk on 1 July 1940 with her entire crew picked up so perhaps a Rotor was found on one of them. Certainly, the capture of U-110 in May 1941 was a major leap forward. Your wiring details are very interesting, thank you.

All the best,

Platon

[Urs Heßling]

moin,

noch etwas mehr (aus der "Chronik des Seekriegs 1939-1945"):

3./4.3.1941
Norwegen / Funkaufklärung
Operation »Claymore«: Erfolgreicher brit. Vorstoß gegen Lofoten, dabei werden wichtige kryptologische Unterlagen erbeutet. Beteiligte Einheiten: Zerstörer Somali (Capt. Caslon), Eskimo, Tartar, Legion und Bedouin und die Landungsschiffe Queen Emma und Princess Beatrix mit 500 Mann Kommando-Truppen an Bord. ...
Doch dies ist jedoch nur die offiziell verbreitete Teil der Geschichte, der einen viel wichtigeren Erfolg überdeckt: Somali gelingt es, das Küstenschutzboot NN 04 / Krebs außer Gefecht zu setzen und zu entern. Dem Enterkommando fallen wichtige Schlüsselunterlagen in die Hände, die es der brit. Aufklärungszentrale Bletchley Park ermöglichen, für die Zeit vom 13.-23.2. und für verschiedene Tage nach dem 20.3. den dt. Funkverkehr mit dem Code »Heimische Gewässer« zu entziffern
----

Gruß, Urs

[Schorsch]

Hallo zusammen,

ich hätte als mögliche Quelle für Geheimmaterial noch U 49 in petto. Lt. Beckh, Joachim: "Blitz & Anker, Band II", S. 242, wurde bei der Versenkung des Bootes am 15.04.1940 die eigentliche ENIGMA-Maschine an Bord zwar zerstört. Die zugehörigen Walzen, die einigen Besatzungsangehörigen zur Vernichtung übergeben wurden, wurden in der Hektik der Gefangennahme aber in den Taschen der Kleidung vergessen.

Ich erlaube mir mal noch eine Anschlussfrage. In Darius' Verlinkung ist in einem Beitrag zu lesen:

VP 2623 captured by HMS Griffin on April 26th, 1940?!

Mir will es weder gelingen, eine 26. Vorpostenflottille zu lokalisieren, zu der dieses Boot seiner Bezeichnung nach gehört haben müsste, oder überhaupt ein Fahrzeug mit der Kennung VP 2623 in der deutschen Kriegsmarine. Vielleicht kann jemand helfen, diesen Widerspruch aufzulösen.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Schorsch

[Darius]

Hallo Schorsch,

muss ein Tippfehler sein und crolick meinte sicherlich Schiff 26.




Darius

[Schorsch]

Hallo Darius,

die Frage ist allerdings, wer den Schreibfehler zu verantworten hat. Die Information in der von crolick getätigten Form stammt nämlich aus Möller, E.: "Kurs Atlantik - Die deutsche U-Boot-Entwicklung bis 1945", Stuttgart: Motorbuch Verlag 1995 und ist dort auf Seite 28 zu finden. Aber ehe ich als kleines Licht anfange, an dem Stuhl einer Koryphäe zu sägen, frage ich lieber noch einmal nach.

Ich hatte übrigens auch schon die Vermutung, die Du als Erklärung angeführt hast. Es ist auf jeden Falle schön zu wissen, dass auch andere denselben Gedanken haben/hatten.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Schorsch

[Platon Alexiades]

Many thanks to you all for your input.

Regarding the papers seized on U-49: these were essentially the Hartmut orders (U-boat orders for operation Weserübung) dated 10 and 30 March 1940 (with minor alterations dated 3 April 1940) and the Naval Grid Chart, probably just for the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea. However, the system used made it easier to guess the grid used for the Atlantic until more grid charts were recovered in 1941. They were very important as they revealed to the British the U-boat strength at that time and that estimated U-boat losses had been significantly less than what was estimated. Incidentally, the losses estimated by Captain Talbot, Director of the Anti-Submarine Warfare Division, were closer to reality and this infuriated Churchill who always estimated the losses to be much higher. The Prime Minister had Talbot removed from his post later in the year. The actual documents appear to have been lost as a search for them some 40 years ago was fruitless.

I did some research on Weserübung in the 70s and 80s and as far as I remember, there were no 26.Vorpostenbootflottille. Schiff 26 and Schiff 37 belonged respectively to 18 and 16.Vorporstengruppe. They were always referred to as Schiff 26 and Schiff 37 and I cannot remember from where V 2623 came about.

Regarding "pinches": the case of the armed trawler Krebs is well known, also that of the weather-reporting boats München and Lauenburg. Other U-boat materials also collected came from U-570, U-559, U-205 and U-505 and I am sure a few more. I seem to recall that the Soviets recovered torpedoes from one U-boat?

Best regards,

Platon

[Urs Heßling]

hello, Platon,

I seem to recall that the Soviets recovered torpedoes from one U-boat?

yes, U 250

Gruß, Urs

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Urs,

Many thanks for reminding me that it was U 250. I believe the Soviets invited the British to examine the torpedo but I do not remember where I read that!

Best regards,

Platon

[Strandurlauber]

Hello Platon,

correct U250 (Type VII C) was sunk on July 30, 1944 off the Finnish coast by the Soviet submarine hunter MO 103 with 2 depth charges. Commander Werner-Karl-Schmidt (1915-2001) and 5 other crew members who were in the control center were able to reach the water surface through the tower hatch from a depth of 27 m and were taken prisoner, 46 other crew members died. In September 1944, despite the fact that the 5th S-Flotilla had been ordered to destroy the wreck with depth charges, it was able to be brought in at night and within range of Finnish coastal artillery and to Kronstadt.
In addition to the Enigma and documents, technology was also recovered, including the acoustic torpedo T5 Zaunkönig (GNAT) and information about it was sent to the british authorities (those responsible in the Soviet Admiralty paid a high price for this after the war, they were indicted, convicted and if they survived imprisonment, they were only rehabilitated in 1953 after Stalin's death).

Best regards,

Strandurlauber

[Platon Alexiades]

Hello Strandurlauber,

Many thanks for the additional details. I see from the BdU KTB that operational areas in the Baltic were defined as "Bengal" and "Trinidad". Do you know the definition of these areas? Also who were the Soviet officials who were involved in passing the information to the British?

Best regards,

Platon