The Bismarck 86 seconds !!!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

I think many of you know very well the Prinz Eugen Rheinubung film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPmkOtSveXY

Inside this film there is the famous double sequence of Bismarck firing to HMS Prince of Wales and receiving some shells in return too.

The Bismarck film is divided into 2 sections ( cutted by a PK censor for propaganda reasons and with an insertion of Hood sinking scene of 6 seconds in between them ).

A careful analysis will demonstrate easily that the 2 Bismarck sequences were connected and has been only cutted for that censor insertion in between, so it is a unique scene we were having originally.

If we count the first Bismarck firing scene starting at counter 05.40 and ending at 06.44,  we have 64 seconds.

Than we have as said the 5-6 seconds of Hood sinking and PoW firing inserted by the PK censor.

Following we have another Bismarck sequence from 06.50 ending at 07.12 of the tape film counter, so other 22 seconds.

Removing the censor insertion of Hood in between as said and joining the 2 Bismarck sequences as it was originally .....

.... we have 64+22= 86 seconds which is the subject of this thread !

Is anybody interested on realize were those 86 seconds fit on Prinz Eugen original battle map track and what do they show of the Bismarck and the Denmark Strait battle ?

Bye / Gruss Antonio 

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

ok, lets put it as an " enigma " to be resolved and see who is really good on history investigation and re-construction   

Here some inputs, first the film interpretation done by some experts here in :

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/film.htm

than the photos identification by National Historical ( NH ) american archive numbers here in :

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/pg_photos.htm

and the original HMS Prince of Wales gunnery report here in :

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509guns.htm

last the Prinz Eugen Denmark Strait original battle map here in :

http://hmshood.com/history/denmarkstrait/pgbattlemap.gif

with the use of those information you should be easily able to complete the matrix of timing I am attaching here following and determine the correct battle time on the third column.

  Bye / Gruss  Antonio 

[Antonio Bonomi]

...  just the evidence about the 2 sequences been originally one before a Propaganda Kompanie censor cutted them and inserted the 6 seconds of Hood  sinking and PoW firing film between them ....

  Bye / Gruss  Antonio 

[Antonio Bonomi]

... and an easier way to read the HMS Prince of Wales gunnery report at Denmark Strait against Bismarck during the first action on May 24th, 1941 , ....  in this way it is easy to see how many shells were falling every salvo around the Bismarck ...

... now one will immediately think how many shells for every salvo the PG film shows falling around the Bismarck ... 

         Bye / Gruss Antonio     

[Götz von Berlichingen]

If I am not mistaken and understand it correctly, the battle time should have been from 0603 to 0604.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Gotz,

you are very close, congratulations !!!

...  as the answer according to my findings I am going to explain soon after is that those  86 seconds falls inside the battle time slot  :  06.03 and 30 seconds  ...  and  06.05.00.

Inside this 90 seconds elapsed time, with due tolerances of course, those 86 seconds are included.

May I ask you which were the elements you used to determine your findings ?

Because this is the goal of this thread, to share those elements and their evaluations all together ....   

I am attaching a battle map on last version enlarged based on Prinz Eugen original battle map to make it easier to explain.....

   Bye / Gruss  Antonio 

[Olaf]

Thanks for making this clear, Antonio.

There should be no doubt anymore that Bismarck was never, ever on port side of Prinz Eugen during this period (wink, wink)


Happy discussing ~ Olaf!

[Götz von Berlichingen]

Hello Antonio!

May I ask you which were the elements you used to determine your findings ?

My thoughts were that it must have been after the German ships turned to starbord in order to avoid the torpedoes which had been heard aboard Prinz Eugen. By turning away from the direction the torpedoes (allegedly) came from the German ships not only showed their narrow silhouettes, but also tried to get out of the range of those torpedoes.

At this time of the battle Bismarck could be seen on the starboard side of Prinz Eugen with her guns pointing and firing to her port aft sector.

By using the listing of the salvoes fired by Prince of Wales, which you had provided in your posting # 3, I concluded that it must have been from 06:03 onwards, when Prince of Wales could only fire with one single gun from her Y-turret her last two shots in the battle. Those two single shots can be seen falling in Min 05:57 and 06:14 of the Wochenschau newsreel.

Greetings

Thomas

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@Olaf,

no doubts anymore since several years that Bismarck was never ever on Prinz Eugen port side before 06.08 during the Denmark Strait battle.

No doubts ! anymore since many years that Bismarck Denmark Strait photos and PG Rheinubung Film are printed correctly and cannot be reversed at all, ... because of dozens of proven reasons and evidences both sides, German and British well reported on official documents.   

To make a long story short and hopefully close this matter once forever here the way I can summarize it for everybody benefit and future discussions to know more about this battle.

Bismarck only fired to port side toward SE (South-East), were the enemy Hood and Prince of Wales were compared to her position and course, since she was North of the enemy and sailing toward SW (South-West).
Denmark Strait battle time from the Bismarck stand point duration was 15 minutes, from 05.55 until 06.09.
We can divide those 14 battle minutes on 2 sections. The first section of 8 minutes from the beginning of the battle by Bismarck at 05.55 until the first issued torpedo alarm by Prinz Eugen at 06.03 (Prinz Eugen signal of Torpedo Gerausche 279). The second section of 6 minutes from the first torpedo alarm at 06.03 until the cease fire at 06.09.

FIRST BATTLE SECTION 05.55 - 06.03

On the first battle section of 8 minutes we have Bismarck track because of the 18 main salvoes that PoW fired to her, it was a straight run in " Kiellinie " ( Ref. Vize-Adm Hubert Schmundt  report ) on Prinz Eugen  starboard side. Why surely on the starboard side of Prinz Eugen ? Because we have several reported evidences of it, it was written by F.O. Busch into his book "Prinz Eugen Im ersten gefecht" and showed by Schmitz-Westerholt famous paint of the salvo that sunk the Hood fired at 06.00 and used on several official Kriegsmarine wartime publications. 

TURNING TO STARBOARD AT 06.03
We have  the Prince of Wales gunnery report and Prince of Wales official battle maps showing us the timing of those events and the turning away of Bismarck at 06.03 more or less at the same time as Prince of Wales did.
It was reported by
HMS Prince of Wales Captain J.C. Leach writings to Hood board of Inquiry : 
" It now seems probable that the enemy turned away at the same time as "Prince of Wales" and about two enemy salvos were seen short during this period".
Lieutenant Commander Geoffrey Brooke, the Prince of Wales artillery officer located into the aft rangefinder of the 356 mm ( 14 inches ), which wrote on his book "ALARM STARBOARD !" at page 57:
" I realized it was a good thing the Captain had not delayed that much longer ( ref.  the PoW turn away of 160 degrees ). We got our binocular on to the enemy just before she was hidden by the smoke, only to see her (i.e. the Bismarck) – not without a sense of relief – alter course away too. Thus the range opened quickly, and the cease fire gong put an end to Y turret's spirited effort."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/4388715/Lt-Cdr-Geoffrey-Brooke.html#
On same book at page 58 also Commander A.C. Luce on board the Norfolk saw all things and wrote to his wife on a letter :
" The sight of Prince of Wales steaming through the smoke and wreckage (i.e. Hood sinking) firing all her guns, and with fountains of splashes all round her, was a never to be forgotten one. Bismarck was hard hit at this time and turned away with troubles on her own."
The event of Bismarck turning away on course 270 west at around 06.03 battle time is well reported on all HMS Prince of Wales official battle maps.
The Prinz Eugen signal of Torpedo Gerausche 279 causing Bismarck turn to starboard at 06.03 was reported into several Kriegsmarine documents even by Admiral Erich Raeder to Adolf Hitler at Berghof on June 6, 1941.

SECOND BATTLE SECTION 06.03 -06.09
The torpedo alarm by Prinz Eugen at 06.03 (Torpedo Gerausche 279 reference Prinz Eugen official battle map ) and Bismarck turning away on course 270 west because of it changed completely the battle scenario.
As showed on several photos and into PG Rheinubung film, the Bismarck was sailing on Prinz Eugen starboard side and had to fire with all the main turrets turned backward on her portside while sailing west.
After a series of turns of Prinz Eugen Bismarck returned on course 220 south west from the course 270 west and crossed Prinz Eugen wake while ordering the Prinz Eugen not to shoot over the Flagship at 06.08 ( reported into official documents). This was the only time into the main guns engagement of Denmark Strait were Bismarck was on Prinz Eugen port side, just less than a minute battle time, and only at the end of it. Soon after the "Cease fire" order came from Admiral G. Lutjens to both warships at 06.09. 

@ Thomas,
you have evaluated very well the battle scenario and the turning toward west because of the Torpedo alarm on course 270 already occurred by Bismarck, which was firing backwards on port side aft as the film shows.

Than you correctly noticed the fall of salvoes by HMS Prince of Wales and the fact that it was a single shell on both occasions and you associated correctly to the 2 last local control fired single shells. This is the reason why I attached the explanation of the film and the PoW gunnery report and scheme above.

Those are crucial to understand the situation and the timing and they are not so easy to be understood by the PoW gunnery report itself without a good way to read them as they occurred. This is why I created with some skilled friends time ago that scheme showing exactly salvo by salvo what HMS Prince of Wales did on every salvo  and making easier to read her complicated gunnery report, especially for the last 3 local control fired salvoes by Y turret during the first action on May 24, 1941.

Now it was very easy to determine the timing as it is unique after 06.03 surely and not after 06.05 since at that point HMS Prince of Wales was not firing anymore.

A quick look at Prinz Eugen battle map and related Bismarck sailing position and there are no doubts that those 86 seconds are inside 06.03 and 06.05 battle time as said, with Bismarck having already made her turn on course 270 west, so after 06.03 and 30 seconds more or less.   

Now we can try to be a bit more precise, ...  and this is what I am going to release soon to you ... 

Bye / Gruss  Antonio   

[Olaf]

To be honest, I think PG is still turning a bit to starboard in the film, maybe at the end of his turn. From the map it appears as BS started turning first, then followed by PG. It always appeared strange to me that the torpedo-alarm came from PG (did it?), but BS reacted first to it. Why did it take PG a minute to react to this torpedo alarm? Anyway, this is not the question here. As mentioned elsewhere, I think both ships are on a slightly converging course, as if PG is still turning. In the film BS appears to be on a straight course, which puts it between 6:03 and 6:05. I have to look up firing procedures again, but is BS in the film trying to straddle PoW again after both she and PoW turned, because BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut'? Term?)?

Happy guessing ~ Olaf!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ Olaf,

you are a very good observer of what is going on into the film now, and perfectly associating it on what the battle maps and situation were on that moment.

YES, the torpedo alarm was issued by Prinz Eugen by a flag, and Kpt zur See E. Lindemann reacted immediately turning Bismarck away to west on course 270 and out of the torpedo range as perfectly noticed by Thomas.

Prinz Eugen did it a bit after and those 2 course changes scrambled both Schneider and Jasper gunnery that was perfectly on the spot on PoW on that moment with several hits, ... they had to restart their firing procedures, ... if you read F.O. Busch book it is perfectly described how Jasper was "not happy" about it with Brinkmann, which explained that he had to do it because of the torpedo alarm.

As said to Thomas the key is the landing of the 2 last Prince of Wales shells which makes it easier to determine perfectly the timing once associated with Prinz Eugen and Bismarck tracks and course changes now.

Look at this scheme and you can determine as I did that the second Y turret local control salvo of 1 shell, so the 20 salvo of PoW, landed on Bismarck stern at 06.03 and 45 seconds more or less, with the due timing tolerances of course.

Bye / Gruss Antonio 

[Götz von Berlichingen]

I have to look up firing procedures again, but is BS in the film trying to straddle PoW again after both she and PoW turned, because BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut'? Term?)?

Bismarck hatte 06:01 Uhr nach der Explosion der Hood Zielwechsel auf Prince of Wales gemacht und mußte sich deshalb mit Halbsalven der vorderen und achteren Turmgruppe neu einschießen.

Bismarck's main artillery at 0601 had changed its target to Prince of Wales after sinking Hood and had to straddle her with half-salvoes of the fwd and aft turrets separately.

[Thoddy]

because BS is firing fwd and aft main turret groups separately (and not 'Schnell und gut')

unabhängig davon, dass die ersten Salven in Richtung POW Einschießen waren,
war das generelle Schießverfahren im Wirkungsschießen ebenfalls durch abwechselnde  Halbsalven der vorderen und der hinteren Turmgruppen gekennzeichnet, zum einen waren dadurch die Beobachtungsmöglichkeiten für die Einschläge verbessert
zum anderen entsteht eine durchgängige  Einschlaglinie der sich ein beschossenes Schiff durch eigenes Manövrieren schlechter entziehen kann, als bei Einschlaggruppen in größeren Abständen

bei 15 sekunden Halbsalvenintervall legt das beschossene Ziel gerade mal etwa 200 m zurück.

[t-geronimo]

Siehe auch die Beschreibung vom Kommandanten PoW, als er die tödlichen Treffer auf Hood schilderte. Dabei sprach er von drei Wassersäulen und dass etwas auf Hood geschehen war.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

if you go into the link of PoW gunnery report at point E  you have the observation of Bismarck fire methodology, here in :

http://www.hmshood.org.uk/reference/official/adm234/adm234-509guns.htm

E - Notes on Enemy Gunnery

1.Spreads. - The small size of the enemy spreads was remarkable. The driving bands of the 15-in. projectile discovered in Prince of Wales are in a perfect state of repair and appear tougher and larger than those of our shell. Although this may assist the accurate ranging of their guns, it is likely that such driving bands cause the guns to wear more quickly.
2.Method of Fire. - Bismarck appeared to fire the whole of her fore group (i.e. "A" and "B" turrets), followed by the whole of her aft group ("X" and "Y" turrets). Towards the end of the morning action, guns in a group were definitely observed to "ripple" as if one or more turrets were in gunlayers' firing.
3.All enemy cruisers and capital ships appear to have their large rangefinders mounted considerably higher than than in our ships. Provided vibration can be eliminated, this fact should be kept in mind in future designs of our ships.

Changing subject back on my 86 seconds of Bismarck  as showed into the PG Film ......

Now once we have determined that the PoW Y turret 20th salvo of 1 gun landed approximately at 06.03 and 45 seconds between Prinz Eugen and Bismarck stern as showed into the  PG Rheinubung film,  we can very easily determine the whole details timing inside those 86 seconds.

So we have the beginning of the film timing, the 2 last PoW salvo shell landing timing ( 20 and 21 ),  3 Bismarck photos which are NH69728, NH 69726 and NH 69727 precise timing and the end of the film sequence.

Of course nobody in this world can try to "reverse" this film and those photos, as it is irrefutable evident that Bismarck is sailing west and firing backwards aft on her own port side.

Comments welcome ...... Bye / Gruss  Antonio